are all the "rules" really important?

[hellohefalump]

I feel like I am the mummy to my fish. I'd never hurt them on purpose and I try to do my best to ensure they are kept in the best conditions possible that are in my power to achieve. I spend the vast majority of my money on the fish and my gerbils. I am responsible for them and I want their quality of life to be the best I can give them.

I guess another term for 'unhappy' could be 'stressed'. A shoaling fish not kept in a shoal is likely to be more stressed than it's meant to be because it's natural defense if it feels threatened is to shoal. Stress leads to death, so in some ways you are slowly killing your fish.

 

[Tiggs]

"it's natural defense if it feels threatened is to shoal"

but thats a defence against certain death from predators.........the only thing my fish have to defend against is the odd dropped plant twezzer.........so they dont need the "group hug" sessions they do in the wild.

i think by putting them in a shoal you are telling them that they should still fear everyday events (like in the wild)....in many ways your fish are probably very unhappy indeed......not only do they live in a glass tank....but now they dont even get to chill out and enjoy it because they still feel the pressure to shoal.
my fish isnt enthraled and living out his life in my lounge but he does accept that with nothing in his world that wants to eat him he is getting an easy life (i think he would feel quite patronised if i told him he should feel like shoaling)

 

[houndour]

What a topic!

What's wrong with the word happy??! Can't fish be happy?! I think of my fish as being happy...and how do I tell? well from their behaviour. I have a miniscule (20 gallon) and cruel tank that obviously isn't much of a feature in my living room, along with my miniscule TV thats only about 28 inches.

Hmmm that must mean I'm living in a house that's too small for humans. I can't fit a 90 gallon tank in my house _anywhere_ except the garden. I'm sure 99% of the people on this forum would love a tank that big but we dont have the space nor finances.

I have 5 corys in my tank...because they like to be kept in groups. And my 5 corys are happier in my tank in my settings than they would be as one in your 90 gallon tank. They have hiding places, sand and companions. I know they are happy because they are always busy busy sifting through the sand for food...they barely stop for a rest. They swim as a group the majority of the time.

My male gourami is happy because he builds bubble nests. I'm sure he wouldn't be doing this is he wasn't happy.

However, I'm not saying your minnow is unhappy. You said your self you bought a group but the rest have died. And you obviously just don't want anymore minnows or I'm sure you would have got more. That's fine, fair enough.

I think you were wrong in the assumption that a 20 gallon tank contains a plastic plant. I've spent a fortune on my tank on lighting, CO2, real plants to provide a more natural setting and natural hiding places for my fish. I cant get a bigger tank, so I'm making the best of what I've got. You cant just go around making assumptions about people with smaller tanks.

Sorry for the rant guys.

 

[Tiggs]

Hmmm that must mean I'm living in a house that's too small for humans.

i'm sure you will survive....but i doubt you will thrive.

 

[Tiggs]

I have 5 corys in my tank...because they like to be kept in groups. And my 5 corys are happier in my tank in my settings than they would be as one in your 90 gallon tank. They have hiding places, sand and companions. I know they are happy because they are always busy busy sifting through the sand for food...they barely stop for a rest. They swim as a group the majority of the time.

thats as assumptive as my assumption that a 28 inch TV must be a bit grim

i have a single khulie loach (rescued!)....they like to be in groups but he isnt.....and he doesnt give a toss he "happily" swims around all day and behaves exactlly as a group i had in the past.

your corys may follow each other round all day so they can moan about the crampped tank and ponder when you will upgrade your TV.......while my loach is an independant....and HAPPY loach on his own!

you confuse "behaving as they do in the wild" with "happy". In the wild my dogs would live in the woods and eat rabbits.......they are happier on my sofa with a tin of dog food......and i know they are happy (the loach told me)

 

[gaya]

"it's natural defense if it feels threatened is to shoal"

but thats a defence against certain death from predators.........the only thing my fish have to defend against is the odd dropped plant twezzer.........so they dont need the "group hug" sessions they do in the wild.

i think by putting them in a shoal you are telling them that they should still fear everyday events (like in the wild)....in many ways your fish are probably very unhappy indeed......not only do they live in a glass tank....but now they dont even get to chill out and enjoy it because they still feel the pressure to shoal.
my fish isnt enthraled and living out his life in my lounge but he does accept that with nothing in his world that wants to eat him he is getting an easy life (i think he would feel quite patronised if i told him he should feel like shoaling)

You are obviously kidding i know but still. If you put five shoaling fish in a 20, 50, 90, or 200g tank they will find each other. I did not use the word happy but preference. This preference can be tested repeatedly to show the fish's choice. Why not give that a shot and see what your little guy does. Of course your preferences come first. Your fish has little choice in that.

 

[houndour]

(the loach told me)

you're just being silly now.

Why do you keep fish? Can we see a pic of your tank?

 

[Angry_Platy]

I have a whiteskirt tetra that used to school with other whiteskirt tetras. For various reasons the other have passed on and left him alone. He/she seems happy and is quite content schooling with the platies when I had neon tetras and glolight tetras, none of them schooled together.

As for happiness, I have two fish, male and female, that need to be kept separated. When put together both of them sulk in the corners of the tank, they do not attack or chase each other and they do not affect other fish. But as long as they are together they don't eat, or swim around or move around at all, much. As soon as I put them into separate tanks they go back to eating, swimming etc. Something weird I know but it kinda shows that fish aren't just creatures of instinct or habit.

My cories are a different story. They can be constantly seen schooling together. One in particular freaks out if left alone anywhere in the tank And I am about to get a school (8 perhaps) or harlequin rasboras to add to my 30gal tank

 

[Tiggs]

(the loach told me)

you're just being silly now.

Why do you keep fish? Can we see a pic of your tank?

i keep fish as they look cool in my living room.

i will have to upload a picture...bear with me.

 

[CFC]

I can see this is going to get out of hand


Fish that have a natural instinct to school such as WCMM's should be kept in groups, there is no doubt about it that they will display their best colours and behave most naturally when kept with a group of their own kind. However i can see that someone that has just one surviving fish from a school may not want to buy any more of those fish as they would rather use the space for something else. I myself am guilty of this as we have 1 remaining glowlight tetra from a school of 12 we bought 5 years or so ago, the glowlights have died off one by one and their space in the tank is now occupied by a school of pentazona barbs, the glowlight is clearly unhappy as it stays in one place in the tank and has lost much of its "glow" but i dont know anyone personally that keeps glowlight tetras and taking a 5 year old tetra back to the store is very unfair on the poor person who buys it as part of a new school of them.

 

[andywg]

Just to add about neons not schooling, most fish will very loosely school (like spread out accross the entire tank) when they are at ease but when they feel threatened they will group up.

My neons used to roam around the entire tank but as the pictus started to grow they felt threatened and would school very tightly in one corner. Now they have been removed from that potential threat they are happily spreading out accross the entirety of their new tank.

 

[BzztYeow]

Fish "shoal" to avoid predators in the wild. If there are no predators in the tank, you might help alleviate their nerves when you bump around the tank... but the behavior no longer serves a real purpose even if it is instinctive.

I hear many people say "You should try to provide the closest to natural conditions possible to get the best coloration and behviour". That's true up to a point, but i dont see anyone strapping birdcages with fish eating birds above their tanks to reproduce their natural environment.

Of course i try to keep my fish "happy". I have removed them from the natural world, and so i want to do what i can to see that they are not "stressed".

While the words "happy/ stressed" may not be exactly EQUIVALENT when compared to their usage for humans, they do make sense. Net your fish every day and give it a couple of slight taps around the head- then see how "happy" it is.

(Don't really do this- PLEASE!)

Rats are the most common animal used for human test extrapolations. Can they be "happy"? Their behaviour is remarkably similar. If you put too many together, they will kill each other (see cities) and not enough they will not grow to full size and develop odd personality quirks.

It's just a recomendation, but at the minimum, i would never keep any animal completely alone from its own species.

 

[Tiggs]

Just to add about neons not schooling, most fish will very loosely school (like spread out accross the entire tank) when they are at ease but when they feel threatened they will group up.

My neons used to roam around the entire tank but as the pictus started to grow they felt threatened and would school very tightly in one corner. Now they have been removed from that potential threat they are happily spreading out accross the entirety of their new tank.

my minow has no such "scary" fish..so he doesnt need to shoal....is it not cruel to keep the animals in a place where they feel the need to gather in groups for protection?

as has been mentioned......fish in a tank are a million miles from "real life".......if the fish misses out on mates but gains the benifit of no birds to eat him.....im sure he's happy!

if you took an Eskimo to Vegas his natural instinct to make an Igloo to live in could not be kept up (due to lack of snow).......but he's getting a lapdance on The Strip so does he care?

T

 

[BzztYeow]

Lol- that eskimo would NOT be happy and certainly wouldn't breed

He could also not wear his best colors...

 

[abstract]

Tiggs, your comments are filled with sarcasm and empty assumptions...more for arguments sake than for discussion...

nobody has to follow the rules...they are there as guidelines mostly for those who do not know about fish...

IMO, its all about ethics, not about fish philosophy (i.e. what a fish thinks)...i do my best to mimic nature...fish swim in schools in nature, fish get a varied diet, fish dont get food everyday..these are all proven facts...

And to be honest, i'm sure if I could provide a natural habitat for my cat and my parent's dog as easily (and cheaply - i am not rich here) as i could for fish, i would....i'm guessing you would let your dog lay on the couch with a tin of food instead, though, because it looks good there..

EDIT: just read the Eskimo thing - sorry to tell you but it is not natural instinct that tells an Eskimo to build an igloo, it is cultural...

another EDIT: in regards to BzztYeow's comment about birds - I bet there are a lot of people out there that would love to create a self-sustaining natural environment in their backyard including insects, birds, fish, amphibians and all - I know I would if I could!