Aragonite, Coral Sand, Raised pH, KH, GH

[Byron]

I have to admit that currently one of my biggest difficulties is reconciling the contradictory information from different websites regarding the needs of different fish species. I can see that the Seriously Fish site offers, for example, a source for the Guppy information, but it's a German periodical article from 1859. I can't access the source, so I can't be critical of it. How do they know this is a good range for Guppies? How much have guppies' needs changed since then, since the fish I can buy from my LFS are probably quite different to the fish that Peters observed in the wild or wherever he observed them in 1859? Of course most sites seem worse; they either don't offer any information about where they get their data, or else they don't even mention water hardness requirements for different fish. I don't know how the SF info relates to the very contradictory information from the Aquarium Industries site I mentioned, which is the site run by the company that supplies all the potential places where I will get my fish. I'll try contacting them, but for someone who really wants to try to avoid making mistakes, and who is coming from an entirely naïve perspective in the fish-keeping world, it's all quite confusing and frustrating. One site will say that I can have some livebearers with some catfish (certainly not most), whilst another will say I can't.

The Aquarium Industries site lists guppies as requiring higher minimum water hardness than other livebearers (according to the caresheets at https://www.aquariumindustries.com.au/fish-care/livebearers/), whilst SF lists the guppy as requiring a MUCH lower minimum water hardness than the other livebearers. According to one site, I could now get Mollies, Platys and Swordtails, but not Guppies as they need harder water. According to the other site, guppies are the only livebearers that I currently could get with my 12dH GH, and the others all require harder water.

I feel compelled to simply try to raise the GH to the highest minimum from both sites for all livebearers, but it is frustrating not really knowing for sure, particularly when some of the information says that there IS a goldilocks range where I could perhaps have SOME livebearers with SOME other fish. Ho hum. Maybe I need to set up another tank with other fish species one day......

Seriously Fish is owned and run by biologists and ichthyologists. All professional ichthyologists regard the data there as reliable. The water parameter data is compiled from many sources for most species, including tests of the habitat waters.

The information you reference in your penultimate paragraph above is inaccurate. Mollies absolutely must have moderately hard or harder water, with a basic pH (high 7's minimum, around 8 fine). Some people even maintain them in brackish and full marine tanks. They don't need the salt, but my point is that they are mineral-loving fish. They will suffer and slowly weaken and die in soft or acidic water, guaranteed.

Swordtails and platies also need moderately hard and basic water, though less susceptible than mollies to slightly less hardness--but it still has to be moderately hard and basic pH.

Guppies should have the same, but this inbred species is so weak now it seem to manage with less. Wild caught fish would be very different. But how far "manage" goes when it comes to wanting healthy fish is a risk.

 

[StevenF]

Since Ill now be adding Replenish to bring the GH higher, at each water change, do I add the amount for the volume of new water to get to the target GH, or lower because the aragonite and coral sand will push it the rest of the way? Or, will the aragonite & coral sand only push the GH to around 200 regardless of the GH of the water going in, and not at all if the GH is already higher?

Normally with fertilizer I would dose based on the amount of new water added in a water change. But I don't think that is appropriate in your case. I think you will have to assume your substrate will provide 200ppm GH. you will then need to add enough GH to push the water above 100 to the target. But I could be wrong since I have not done this. I would try adjusting the GH with a few water changes before you get fish to determine if you need to add for the full target Gh or only enough to go over 200ppm to the target.

You might want to ask Sachem on there website.
http://www.seachem.com/contact-support.php

I think it is just plain old Flourish (not Flourish Comprehensive). I'll check when I get back home.

I don't know what plain old Flourish is. If you are not sure look at the label for the gurarentied analysis. Flourish Comprehensive guarantied analysis is listed on there web site:
http://www.seachem.com/flourish.php

A very small part of me still wonders about removing some of the aragonite substrate and replacing it with something like ECO Complete (and having both substrates). I don't know everything it has, but sulphur is definitely one thing. I realize that I am having trouble reconciling the conflicting information I receive from different sources, and sometimes flip back and forth for a few days over questions like this.

I would go with regular gravel. While ECO complete will add some nutrients, it won't do that forever. They will eventually run out of nutrients. It might take as little as one year for the nutrients to get depleted. Root tabs might be a better option. If you think you might have a sulfur deficiency in the future you can try adding a small amount of Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) if plant growth impress sulfur would be suspect. However Epsom salt adds GH so you might have to adjust your GH dose to compensate for the added Epsom salt.

I wouldn't worry about sulfur deficiency now. You might never get it. Each tank is different and yours may not behave unlike any other.

 

[Yarkii]

Seriously Fish is owned and run by biologists and ichthyologists. All professional ichthyologists regard the data there as reliable. The water parameter data is compiled from many sources for most species, including tests of the habitat waters.

The information you reference in your penultimate paragraph above is inaccurate. Mollies absolutely must have moderately hard or harder water, with a basic pH (high 7's minimum, around 8 fine). Some people even maintain them in brackish and full marine tanks. They don't need the salt, but my point is that they are mineral-loving fish. They will suffer and slowly weaken and die in soft or acidic water, guaranteed.

Swordtails and platies also need moderately hard and basic water, though less susceptible than mollies to slightly less hardness--but it still has to be moderately hard and basic pH.

Guppies should have the same, but this inbred species is so weak now it seem to manage with less. Wild caught fish would be very different. But how far "manage" goes when it comes to wanting healthy fish is a risk.

Thank you Byron!

Okay - you've alleviated some of my frustration & confusion regarding the websites. I realise now that I haven't taken an indepth a look at other parts of the SF website which probably hold more info regarding the site creators. There are just so many things to take in in a short time with fish keeping & trying to get it right. It's hard to know where to direct the limited time there is to devote to what is essentially a hobby in the scheme of life. I want to do the best I can, but the beginning is rather overwhelming.

I'm definitely starting to think that I won't get Mollies. I'll need quite a lot of Replenish to get the GH that high, and I'm concerned about the temporary fluctuations during/after water changes, and getting it accurate each time, and introducing new fish into the tank when they've probably been in much softer (definitely much lower pH, but probably softer too) water in the LFS.

Once I start setting up the QT, I won't use aragonite as substrate. Instead I'm thinking that I'll try to match the LFS water, and use a bag/bags of aragonite when I buy new fish, to slowly lift the pH to match my big tank. The QT will be weeks away from that, though, so I still need to work out how to acclimatize the first group of fish I get.

For now, I only want to get Guppies, as I'm confident their needs match my water parameters. I'll keep monitoring the water and the methods of maintaining it, and later decide whether to include Swordtails or Platys.

Incidentally, on SF I only found "Green Swordtails", but the species name is identical to what I see on other sites for the Swordtails commonly available. The minimum GH requirements look to be even lower for Swortails than for Guppies.

I still wish my pH hadn't gone so high. If it had stayed between 7.0 & 7.5, I could have considered Julii Corys and Guppies (and Swordtails) together, I believe. But now that it's 7.8, I don't relish the thought of playing with things further (e.g. using peat moss or almond leaves?) to try to bring it back down.

Incidentally, whilst doing my second water change yesterday, I realised that the procedure I use to refill the tank absolutely DID leave it open to contamination. I repeatedly fill a 9L plastic watering can with 8L of water in my laundry trough. This same trough always has various other things going into it. Although we use environmentally friendly / natural cleaning products, they're not designed to go into fish tanks, or to be consumed by fish or by plants. Plus there are a couple of things we use with stained clothing that aren't in the environmentally-friendly range. The bottom of the watering can is in contact with whatever has previously been in the trough. I do recall the bottom of the watering can touching the tank water as I got towards the top of the tank, as it was difficult holding it up so high. This time, I wiped it down before taking it to the tank, and took extra care not to let it touch the tank water. I will develop a more hygienic regimen for future water changes (including stealth regarding zero cross contamination of the tools used to put Replenish & Prime into the water going into the tank).



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[Yarkii]

I do not recommend this. First, Eco-Complete is not really worth the high cost. I used Flourite, a very similar product, and saw no improvement. The other thing is that substrate fish can have issues with either of these, they are rough/sharp. Believe me, you are not going to benefit from these so-called plant substrates. Waste of money, and risky to boot.

Thanks Byron.

I recall you saying this about Flourish, but I didn't realise that ECO Complete was similar.

Jacqui

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[StevenF]

But now that it's 7.8, I don't relish the thought of playing with things further (e.g. using peat moss or almond leaves?) to try to bring it back down.

Peat moss and almond leaves will only affect PH for a short time. Once they run out of tannins (which are slightly acidic) the PH will go back up.

Information on Tannin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin

 

[Yarkii]

My apologies for going so long without a response. I'll try to write as quick as possible an update below.

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[Yarkii]

Normally with fertilizer I would dose based on the amount of new water added in a water change. But I don't think that is appropriate in your case. I think you will have to assume your substrate will provide 200ppm GH. you will then need to add enough GH to push the water above 100 to the target. But I could be wrong since I have not done this. I would try adjusting the GH with a few water changes before you get fish to determine if you need to add for the full target Gh or only enough to go over 200ppm to the target.

Thank you, Steven. I worked out that if I add the recommended amount to change the volume of water being added from the existing ~3dH GH (my tap water) up to the desired GH, that works. The KH takes longer to hit the desired amount (overnight, then it stays fairly stable, with a very slow rise for the next six days). The GH will hit the target hardness within a couple of hours (could be quicker, but I haven't tested it immediately after a change), then slowly rise by another 1 to 2dH over the next six days.

I don't know what plain old Flourish is. If you are not sure look at the label for the gurarentied analysis. Flourish Comprehensive guarantied analysis is listed on there web site:
http://www.seachem.com/flourish.php

Thank you. The Flourish I have is what you're calling Flourish Comprehensive.




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[Yarkii]

Peat moss and almond leaves will only affect PH for a short time. Once they run out of tannins (which are slightly acidic) the PH will go back up.

Information on Tannin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin

Thank you Steven. I decided not to play with things further. I still haven't invested in a Hanna Industries pH checker yet, so I'm not entirely confident that I actually know what the precise pH of my tank water is, but I am confident that it is constant. No matter what the GH or KH or anything else read, the pH always reads as 7.8 on the API High pH test, always reads as 7.6 on the mid-range API pH test, and always reads as 7.4 on the Seachem alert in the sump.

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[Yarkii]

FYI I decided to go with guppies & julii corydoras. I let myself be talked into getting both M & F guppies from the LFS. This was not my intention, and I shouldn't be so impulsive with such things. However, they assured me that they would accept donations of any fish I breed if I can't keep them and can't find them a home.

(Incidentally, he also threw me off on the day I first bought guppies, by saying it should be 2 males to 1 female. I said I thought it should be the other way around, but he absolutely insisted that I had it wrong. I stupidly bought more males than females, and painfully watched the boys terrorise the two girls on that first evening, before taking two boys back and later swapping them for four girls.)

I impulsively bought more, as I was a little tantalised by the different colours. In total I bought six boys and 11 girls. I found one girl deceased, floating in the tank, but I don't know if she was from the group I'd bought the day before, two days before, or five days before.

So now I have six boy guppies and ten girl guppies, and 8 julii corydoras. I don't plan on adding any more fish to this tank, as according to aqadvisor, it's 72% stocked. I don't know if guppy fry will survive; I do have a breeding net, but only intend using it to 'rescue' any fry I happen to find in the tank, before they get sucked into the filter or eaten by anyone.

I've tried blocking the grill to the overflow with stockings (didn't let any water through) and with netting from a fish net (plant debris banked up and blocked water flow), but will have to leave it to luck.... do guppy mums tend to give birth high up or low down in a planted tank?

I'm aiming to keep the GH between 9 & 11dH, to satisfy both the guppies & julii cories (8 to 12dH seems to be the range they are both okay, according to Seriously Fish). I was tempted by platinum medakas and thought about asking about their behavioural compatability (as they seem to require similar water parameters), but because I went overboard with the guppies and might end up with more, I won't add any more fish.





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[Yarkii]

Oh, and some of the fish started intermittently 'flashing', and my smallest boy had slightly clamped fins for a couple of days but now doesn't, but now my smallest girl has very clamped fins. Her tail comes to a point now. The LFS said they're the first signs of white spot (is that the same thing that people call ich?), and sold me some white spot medicine which I dosed today after a water change (then came on here and discovered advice about NOT dosing). I don't have a hospital tank yet, and worry that this one sick little girl might get everyone else sick. I'm not sure how quickly the white spot medicine is meant to work, but if I follow instructions, I'm supposed to dose again after three days.



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[thrujenseyes]

Omgoodness! I'd fallen so behind on reading this thread (which is very interesting with the ph/gh/kh that I struggle with also and how to adjust).

You've gotten fish!! Yay, well, not yay as I saw in the last post they might be struggling a bit.
If it is ich, it's relatively easy to correct but I believe they (here) don't like to medicate but raise temps but I'd ask that by someone who really knows as I'm sure this depends on the fish you keep!
I hope they work out and get healthy because I'm dying to see pics of the inhabitants and see them enjoying that new gorgeous home you created for them!

I had to laugh at you're bucket contamination mishap and you saying you're not stealthy enough!
I keep all of my fish stuff completely separate from house things for this very reason.

I must give you props for your understanding and comprehension of all you've learned so far!
You're doing great!!!!

Good Luck with the fishes!!!!

 

[Yarkii]

Aw. Thanks Jen.

I'm feeling very guilty, for having bought fish sooner than I intended, and more than I intended, and females when I wasn't going to.

Omgoodness! I'd fallen so behind on reading this thread (which is very interesting with the ph/gh/kh that I struggle with also and how to adjust).

I did see your post a few days ago about your recent discovery about your water. I'll have to go back to catch up. How's it panning out?

You've gotten fish!! Yay, well, not yay as I saw in the last post they might be struggling a bit.
If it is ich, it's relatively easy to correct but I believe they (here) don't like to medicate but raise temps but I'd ask that by someone who really knows as I'm sure this depends on the fish you keep!
I hope they work out and get healthy because I'm dying to see pics of the inhabitants and see them enjoying that new gorgeous home you created for them!

I wish I came here first, but I have been keen to change the water and then medicate, since the LFS said it's early white spot and that they do a half-dose of white spot medicine every time they get new fish. I'm sure moving tanks has been stressful, and meeting new fish twice. I took a long time transferring each fish into my water because it's harder and higher pH than where they came from, but ideally I'm sure it should have been a much slower transition every time.

I'll try to take some photos asap. It's night now, so lights are off.

I had to laugh at you're bucket contamination mishap and you saying you're not stealthy enough!
I keep all of my fish stuff completely separate from house things for this very reason.

I need a bigger house. Or at least a bigger laundry. Nah, a bigger house!

I must give you props for your understanding and comprehension of all you've learned so far!
You're doing great!!!!

Good Luck with the fishes!!!!

Thank you. Hopefully I can save my little sick girl, and keep the others healthy too. Good luck with your fishies too!





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[Yarkii]

I need a better camera, but here is my tank.

Today I took out the hairgrass, as it turned brown no matter where it was in the tank. I trimmed back a lot of the elodea, and replanted the cut stems where the hairgrass used to be.

I can see much more in there now, but I'm afraid I've taken away the best hiding spot for the 1 - 3 little fry that are swimming around in the tank. There are a further 9 - 10 fry in a little breeding 'cage' thingy, but I don't think I'll use that again. Catching them took ages, and I think I stressed out all my fish in the lengthy process of catching the fry. I might get more hairgrass and plant it in the back corners, just for fry.

 

[thrujenseyes]

Oh man what a beautiful home!!!!
They're gorgeous colors too!
I'd certainly let the fry fend for themselves....it will be fun to see who may pop up in the future!
Although I know that's hard to do as I know myself ...I'd be glued to the tank trying desperately to keep my eyes on all the babies and being horrified when they get eaten.
But these are guppies and they multiply very quickly and you've got a lot of great natural space in there! I'm sure you'll get survivors!
It looks wonderful!!!!!!

 

[Yarkii]

Oh man what a beautiful home!!!!
They're gorgeous colors too!
I'd certainly let the fry fend for themselves....it will be fun to see who may pop up in the future!
Although I know that's hard to do as I know myself ...I'd be glued to the tank trying desperately to keep my eyes on all the babies and being horrified when they get eaten.
But these are guppies and they multiply very quickly and you've got a lot of great natural space in there! I'm sure you'll get survivors!
It looks wonderful!!!!!!

Thanks Jen!

It looked like a jungle until I trimmed that elodea & took the hairgrass out this afternoon. I hope the fishies don't get all stressed with the extra open white spaces now. It is a little reassuring for me being able to actually see everywhere in there now, but I worry about the babies, and the catfish, not having hiding places.

I've confirmed now that I've somehow lost two catfish! I blame that blasted overflow. I still haven't managed to find the right material to stop fish getting through without stopping water (or quickly clogging with plant debris and blocking water). I'm hoping that today's 'gardening' will reduce the plant debris.

IKWYM about spending too much time looking for the babies. I'm constantly checking on the fish, and seeking out the three little fry that were hiding in the hairgrass mostly. It looks like there's only one now, but I've thought that before and then suddenly seen two or three at once. I really hope they make it, and the little guys in the net too, but mostly these ones that are living dangerously.