Aquaone 980

I think I understand what you are saying? Do you mean "cheating" as finishing my cycle with a reduced number of fish? (fish-in cycle)? Also can someone enlighten me as to why we have to wait till the Nitrite clears in 10-12 hours as opposed to the 13-24 hour mark!! Its just I have read a lot of fishless cycles logs (as we all have ;o) ) and I haven't seen anyone mention the reason why once??
 
This cycling business is really testing my patience, todays results showed some ammonia after 12 hours!! Its been a steady ammonia down after 12 hours and nitrite after 17ish hours! Light green (ammonia)and purple (nitrite) on the tests. MMM ideas anyone??
 
Well, I would put it a different way, its not cheating at all. Your tank is already cycled more or less, whats happening now is we're being sure the if you were to put a full stocking (pushing the one inch of fish body per US gallon right up to the number of gallons you have) in there immediately after the big water change, that the filter would be stable and would not "mini-cycle" on you. Its very common though for people to find, once they are near the end of their stocking plan, that they have one or more species that they are going to "wait on." Very commonly this might be a big shoal of cardinal/neon tetras (since you need to wait 6 months on those) or it might be a pair of "centerpiece" fish because they are expensive (or sensitive, like GBRs for instance) and you want to further stabilize the tank beyond just the cycling part. So if there are a significant number of fish "delayed" from the initial stocking and you are going to come in significantly below the one inch guideline level of stocking, then its often perfectly ok to skip the "final sticking episode" and go ahead with the big water change and the partial stocking introduction. (We're assuming probably no more than a 75% bioload introduction if that makes sense?)

What happens at the big water change and initial introduction is that you want the colonies of the two species of bacteria to be capable of handling a much larger bioload than you introduce. This allows them to drop back down and perfectly match whatever bioload you put in. You always want this because its impossible to perfectly match a colony set to a given bioload and it certainly doesn't work to place more bioload in with undersized colonies because then you're just back to a fish-in cycle.

The 12 hour drop point has been talked about and respected for a long time I believe but I know it came about in earnest here in the TFF beginner section over a years time and was discussed a lot by me, Miss Wiggle and BTT, who were quite actively helping at the time. What had become quite obvious was that a lot of people were getting to where ammonia and nitrite was dropping to zero somewhere between 12 and 24 hours or perhaps they reached their very first instance of double-zeros (as that's called) at 12 hours and they would jump for joy and get fish. Then quite a few of them would experience are rather sharp mini-cycle and end up changing a lot of water for a week, despite having "done a fishless cycle." What we worked out was that if ensured that the toxins were clearing in 12 hours and then performed a "qualifying week," watching it do that for about a week (or the rest of a week until they could buy fish on a weekend was the idea) then we found we had almost a 100% success rate with members who were willing to do that for their case. The efficacy of it seemed to be reinforced because a significant number of people did indeed find thay they had surprise spikes during that qualification week. But then once they finally had a successful qualification week they virtually never saw spikes after that (assuming a decent filter of course!)

Anyway, I know you are in pain now and I feel for you. I had a fishless cycle that ended up totaling 160 days (because a tank broke in the middle) and martinking and some others have had ones over 100 days. But most of the very long ones are no longer than between days 60 and 70 and many, many cycles are less than that, leading us to cite 3 weeks to two months as a reasonable average, which I still feel is reasonably accruate.

~~waterdrop~~
 
Thankyou Waterdrop, that has cleared it up for me now, I think the tank has gone backwards a bit in its clearing of Nitrite so I will give it another week or two and hopefully things might be clearer then.

Thanks again WD :)
 
You've not been posting pH very regularly but I hope you've been keeping an eye on that result. About 7% of the nitrate(NO3) produced at the end of the nitrogen cycle (and of course you're overdriving the nitrogen cycle during a fishless cycle by dumping in tons of ammonia compared to what a lighter stocked tank would get) gets itself into the nitric acid form of the nitrate ion in solution and since nitric acid is a very strong acid, even this tiny amount (7% of say 80 or 160 parts per million is not very much of course) can have a considerable effect on the pH. Not only that but it can come on quite suddenly because there is the KH factor "holding back the dam" so to speak. The mineral content that we call temporary hardness will be in there neutralizing as much acid as it can right up to the point where its essentially used up and then all of a sudden those naked protons will be free to hit your pH test and drive your number to a new low!

(I'm just setting up some member to come along and say "Yeah, watch your pH!") :lol:

~~waterdrop~~
 
I have been keeping an eye on the PH since we did the first water change and its been coming out about 7.2-7.4ish (deep blue). We did another 90% water change yesterday and I added ammonia last night and tested again after 12 hours and the readings are still ammonia clearing after 12 hours and the Nitrites are still purple. Its all still clearing after 24 hours which is still good news. I noticed a comment you made about the quality of the filters on a previous post so it made me look at mine which I think have seen better days, so I am going to order a new set today and hopefully add these one at a time and see if that helps things along?? ;)
 
You don't usually ever want to change media during a fishless cycle. The biofilm colonies are usually still quite fragile all the way through the process and out to about 6 months from when the tank was started. I forget, was the media in your filter not new when you started the fishless cycle? It would be a shame if it was old sponge media that has actually ripped and is letting water get by without being filtered!

~~waterdrop~~
 
The filters on my tank have a wool/carbon layer then a black sponge then the ceramic noodles layer. The wool layer on the top is a tad threadbare hence thinking I should change them. I understand that it would be detrimental to change the filters now and have to restart the cycle :( I don't think my other half would be too pleased if we had to wait another 3 months lol.

I am still testing and the ammonia is clearing after 12 hours but the Nitrite turned purple stright away this morning but will have cleared later (24hours).
 
It depends on the relative amounts of each type of media. If the filter has reasonable ratios and the ceramic noodles and sponge that are staying in are the majority of the media then there's nothing at all wrong with replacing your fine mechanical media (the "wool" layer that's meant for polishing the water.) Sorry, I thought you meant pulling out a significantly sized sponge or something.

~~waterdrop~~
 
"Very commonly this might be a big shoal of cardinal/neon tetras (since you need to wait 6 months on those)"

I didn't realise that you couldn't add these fish straight away. Can anyone explain why these fish need a "mature" tank to survive? Also is there any other fish we need to avoid? We was going to initially stock with Minnows and penguin tetras. Should we avoid these now?

I will post this question in the tropical discussion section too.
 
The difference between a "mature" and a new tank is simple but still complex PJandNoo. A newly cycled tank has a decent system established that takes care of the nitrogen cycle by moving ammonia through to nitrates which you then remove via a water change. Although we can easily measure the progress of the nitrogen cycle, many other balances also need to be established in a tank. You could think of it in much the same way that you would a new lawn. If you have a new lawn, you can add some simple and cheap Ammonium sulfate to get the lawn growing quickly. If you were to add a simple 'balanced' fertilizer instead, you would get the same rapid growth without the crash that inevitably results from using a fert without its full complement of needed 'minor' ingredients.
 
Agree, we, as hobbyists, only have the time and money (and information!) to measure and follow the simplest of things going on in the tank. Even a simple undergraduate limnology course could probably open ones eyes to lots of other things possibly going on in a freshwater environment. Without more knowledge and measurement, we have to rely on collective observations as hobbyists.

Deciding what represents an accurate observation from among all the noise that hobbyists make, coming from all their individual backgrounds and experiences is a problem in itself of course, but those who have had an interest and have participated for years do attempt to sift the information and try to get it on up to the knowledge stage.

One of the observations is that neon/cardinal tetras just for some reason do a whole lot better when introduced to a tank that has matured 6 months, regardless of when it nominally cycled. There's no particular explanation just an observation that has "averaged" itself out of various individual comments if you will, over the years. Likewise, German Blue Rams (GBRs) have been observed to need tighter water parameters (less nitrate etc.) than any number of other smaller cichlids. Its just an obervational thing is my understanding. With every species, there's bound to be someone out there in the wide world who has kept species tanks of them and can make much more detailed comments on the species. Sometimes we're lucky enough as hobbyists to stumble upon these people and get to hear some real wisdom.

~~waterdrop~~
 
Just an update on how things are going.

Ammonia/Nitrite levels are still clearing in 12/24 hours so no change there. We have completed a 90% and a 50% water change in the last couple of months and Nitrate levels are minimal now. We have now added some live plants into the tank and looks like this weekend we are going to actually add some fish!!! Trying to decide what to get has been a struggle but think we have settled for some Minnows prob about 10 and a few guppies and swordtails to keep the tank going till it all matures a bit and we can add some more.

Just want to say thanks to all of you that have passed on help and advice and tips. Also want to say a special thanks to Waterdrop and Oldman47 for all their very helpful hints and tips, its all been appreciated.

I will add some pictures soon as poss.

Paul and Nicky
 
Glad to hear from you two - hope the big change goes well for you! When one has been cycling for a long time it certainly adds to the "event" feeling when you make the big water change and get the first stocking. That night you feel like, wow, there they really are, swimming around, after all that work to get ready for them!

~~waterdrop~~
 
Hi all,

Just to finish the story off, I did a 50% water change sat and tidied up the plants etc ready for some new arrivals that day. We took a drive to our local Pets at home store and decided to acquire 4 peppered corys and 4 penguin tetras which were the last ones in the store ;o( I have to give the guy that worked there some credit as he asked about the tank size and how long it had been running and he recommended that I only put 4 fish in at first. I explained the fishless cycling we had done but to no avail but he actually admitted it was nice to talk to someone who knew what they was doing lol so not one for an argument we came out with the Corys and I have to admit they are brilliant fishes to have. Yesterday we took a drive to another larger LFS (more reputable?)and brought home 10 minnows and 3 Swordtails (poo machines)and no questions asked!!! They are all settled and enjoying the large amount of room they now have to play in and the kids love watching them too. I did feel bad this morning when I woke them all up by putting the light on ;o)

Keep up with fishless cycling people, it really is worth it!!

Paul and Nicky
 

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