Apisto Species Tank...

njstockley

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having a quiet saturday night in and was reading up on apistos after seeing all the amazing pics that people have posted on this forum of theirs...


on seriously fish i read that some aquarists keep species like agassizi in very densely stocked aquariums as is the case with mbuna - it says some stock as many as 50 fish per 10 gallons!! has anyone tried this? if so i would love to see pictures or videos of the setup...sadly nothing on youtube that i could find. i imagine you would have to be very dedicated to keep on top of the water changes of that kind of stocking...

its not something that i would want to try but was intrigued to read it.

nick
 
That sounds pretty harsh to be fair 50 to 10 gallons I would be surprised if they could move!! Any links to the article?

I know of someone who breeds every strain of Severum in his fish house and he plucks pairs from his 4x2x2 to breed them specifically but in the main tank of around 120g he has about 20 Severums - its a total night mare most of the time though as he has to do water changes every other day other wise hole in the head sets in really quick and most of his fish have scars which is a real shame.

I wouldnt recommend it...

Wills

WOW!! I just read the article on Seriously fish and your right!! It says they keep them in large tanks - its really interesting about the correlation to wild habitats 1000 Apistos in 9 meters.... wow!!!

Wills
 
hi wills

agreed, 50 in 10 gallons seems extraordinary.
the wording below is from the agassizi profile on seriously fish:

The first approach is really for dedicated aquarists only, and is a recent development in the hobby. It is based around simulating the natural lifestyle of the fish. In nature they can be found living in huge groups in relatively small areas. As many as 1000 individuals have been recorded cohabiting in a space measuring only nine square metres! Obviously these conditions are nigh on impossible to recreate in an aquarium, but a growing number of hobbyists are keeping their apistos in crowded conditions in larger tanks. Some have recommended a density of as many as fifty fish per ten gallons of water! If you decide to try this approach, decorate the tank as densely as you can. The principle is similar to crowding of African Mbuna in aquaria to dissipate aggression, a method that has been used for years. Simply, the population density means that individuals never have a chance to establish defined territories. Conspecific aggression thus diminishes accordingly.


[font="tahoma][color="#040404"]And as said in the original post, its not something that I would try, just intrigued to see if anyone on here with more experience than me has given it a go.[/color][/font]
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[font="tahoma][color="#040404"]nick[/color][/font]
 
I think its worth getting in touch with the people that write seriouslyfish - really interested in this, its really interesting that what we have been doing in the hobby is quite wrong compared to wild when most literature has always dictated that Apistos are best in hareems of 2 or 3 when in reality its like 50 or 60 haha!!

Wills
 
i am just trying to imagine what a tank of 10s or 100s of apistos would look like..!
 
contacted seriously fish about a week ago on this but yet to hear back...desperate to know how this would work and look!!
 
Crowding curbs agression, i have always done it with Cichlid species, they say dont do it with New worlds, but it works, i have mixed flowerhorns, oscar, jag, severums, Texas, Salvini, Red Devil, Blood Parrots in a 6ftx2ftx2ft tank before with no problem (from young to adult sizes)
 
they say dont do it with New worlds, but it works

have had similar feedback from others, including one guy at the lfs. just makes a change to hear it. you always hear it recommended to overstock malawis, but new worlds not so much. as wills said, the reco here is to keep apistos in pairs/harems, never in larger quantities. would the all male set up work? or do you think that it would be a couple of males per lots of females?
 
The problem with keeping Americans in over stocked ways is that they are more susceptible to hole in the head and lateral line problems as a result of the high nitrate an over stocked tank caries even if it is over filtered.

Really want more details on these Apisto tanks though :D

Wills
 
This is really interesting. I would have never thought! I don't have the time, money, or tanks for it though.
 
Sorry for dragging this one up again...

I've tried to contact SF a couple of times since reading the article but sadly no response ... so I've done some more digging around, and found that someone on this site had looked to do something similar. Adds a bit more insight than what I've been able to dig up.

Seems to be some good debate on the subject but with no definitive answers - shame as I was starting to think of giving it a go in my Rio 180...

Nick
 
why dont you? i have around 40 apistogramma alacrina fry at the moment as long as its densly planted with plenty of leaf litter it will work. Best thing to do is grow them together from babys I have seen similar with a friends cacatoides tank both are 30 gallon 36 wide by 12 depth 18 high and they worked well together. If you get it right then the females will work together to protect young like sisters almost
 
Still really interesting just wanted to highlight this part to you though its intersting that it was researched during the dry season - just wondering if it really was a way of survival rather than a way of life

Just a thought though - http://www.lem.net/alf/css-index-eng.htm Alf Sthalsberg has dealt with some Apistos in his time and is quite a respected guy in the cichlid secene and from what I have heard is open to being contacted with questions. Might be worth sending him an email about it?

Wills

Just to let folk know, I've given up on this idea. I've had a mixed response and decided that its beyond me. For anyone who is interested, here's some information that swayed me towards a huge "no chance".

There are several falacies with the idea of high density apisto keeping:

1. Uwe Römer's studies were conducted primarily during the dry season when
many streams are drying out and all that are left are isolated pools filled
with damp leaves and little water. These are refuges for fish, someplace to
survive until better conditions arrive.

2. Food becomes scarce during the dry season, so fish are not in optimal
condition for breeding. The drying habitats definitely are not ideal
breeding environments.

3. The drying habitats definitely are not ideal breeding environments. As
such, almost no breeding occurs during the dry season and very few adult
fish survive this period. The dense populations of fish are only interested
in surviving, not in defending breeding territories. Little energy is
expended in territorial aggression. Apistos, like most small fish in the
Amazon, breed seasonally during the rainy season when water spreads out into
the surrounding 'flooded forest'. Now the area for suitable breeding
territories has not only increased by orders of magnitude, but food species
(insects & aquatic crustaceans) have exploded in numbers, and water quality
is improved markedly. The surviving young explode in size & maturity and are
ready to breed. Now they become territorial, but because the area available
for territories has increased, their population density has dropped
drasticly and territorial aggression probably is not very high.

Now, for David Soare's suggestion for high density keeping of apistos. It
works well if:

1. The fish are not sexually mature - as you would find in grow-out tanks.

2. There are enough breeding territories that are hidden from sight of
surrounding territories. For example, an aquarium filled almost to the top
with jumbled piles of PVC pipe or loose layers of leaf litter.

Even in such aquariums, sexually mature fish will want to breed (assuming
that the water quality is adequate) and these dense populations will lead to
levels of aggression that rarely occur in the wild. Mature fish will be
killed and fry mortality will also be high. The quantity of surviving fry
will be much higher in an artifical breeding situation where the male is
removed when the eggs/fry appear, and the female is removed once the fry
start to wander away from their mother. To prove this take 20 pairs of fish
from the same spawn of an 'easy to breed' apisto. Spawn 10 pairs
artificially in 10 smaller tanks. Take the other 10 pairs and put them in a
tank about 2x the volume of the others. After a year compare the number of
fry & the numbers of adult losses. You'll see which is more productive (and
actually more 'natural').




Anyway, thanks for showing an interest people. The input was appreciated!

Mark
 
why dont you? i have around 40 apistogramma alacrina fry at the moment as long as its densly planted with plenty of leaf litter it will work. Best thing to do is grow them together from babys I have seen similar with a friends cacatoides tank both are 30 gallon 36 wide by 12 depth 18 high and they worked well together. If you get it right then the females will work together to protect young like sisters almost

yeah - I might just try it. It would definitely be densely planted, and a good M/F ratio. It will be very overfiltered too.

I'm not bothered about keeping fry but would be great to see their behaviour in a large group.

Also, was looking at your alacrina advert...my girlfriend is in Bristol so I visit quite often. May be able to take a few off your hands - or from the next batch (tank won't be setup until later this month / early next)!

[font="Verdana]Still really interesting just wanted to highlight this part to you though its intersting that it was researched during the dry season - just wondering if it really was a way of survival rather than a way of life [/font]

Yeah - that's still the concern for me - if it's only out of necessity, it wouldnt be fair to try it long term in an aquarium.


thanks for the replies though - still trying to work out what I'm going to do with this tank..!
 
oh dont worry about that my 2nd female is guarding eggs now too so fingers crossed il have alot more by then :)
 

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