It's 1ml per 10g of water.
Their the same amount from what I've seen...
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API Tap Water Conditioner vs. Seachem Prime
- Thread starter Slaphppy7
- Start date
OP
OP
Amazon Prime prices (US), taxes not included:
Prime 500 ml $18.49
API AE 8 oz (227.30 ml) $8.49
So, 2 bottles of the API would cost $16.98 for 454.60 ml....500 ml of the API would be about $18.66
Very close in price, indeed
Prime 500 ml $18.49
API AE 8 oz (227.30 ml) $8.49
So, 2 bottles of the API would cost $16.98 for 454.60 ml....500 ml of the API would be about $18.66
Very close in price, indeed
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
Chlorine in low concentration is still harmful to fatal for fish. Ammonia is way different. How bad it might be depends on other water parameters.
So,why do we add dechlor? It is supposed to be because of residual amounts in tap water. But what about ammonia which can be created when chloramine is broken down into its two parts- chlorine and ammonia? Consider first we are discussing residiual concentrations. For most of us who use municipal water there are regulations involved which dictate how much of what is permissible in the water supply. This is not very much chlorine or ammonia. It is certainly not enough to be a problem for most humans.
But fish are not human. We do not breath water. So the question, in terms of fish, becomes is the water safe in terms of chlorine and ammonia. The answer, in many cases is yes. But in the interest of better safe than sorry we have declor.
Lets not forget that in many tanks with a pH closer to neutral that ammonia in the water is mostly ammonium which is way less harmful. Next ammonia evaporates especially in when the water has the surface roiled which promotes gas exchange and allows Ammonia gas to evaporate.
If we want to we can even test this all. I can lay out a simple experiment most of us can do to determine how much residual ammonia is being created when we have chloramine in our tap and we use a dechlor which will break that down into chlorine and ammonia.
1. Put 1 gal. of tap water into a clean bucket. Test it for ammonia. If you have a test for chlorine do that as well.
2. Also, test the pH and the take the temperature of the water.
3. Add the proper (not extra) dechlor to the bucket and swish the water around to spread it.
4. Wait about 5 minutes and repeat the tests in step 1.
You will now know the concentration of Total Ammonia (NH3 + NH4) in the tank.
Now head on over to the ammonia calculator here: http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php
Then do this:
1. Choose NH (NH3 + NH4)*
2. Enter in the total ammonia reading from your test, choose ppm.
3. For a fresh water tank, enter 0 for the salinity.
4. Enter your tank’s current pH.
5. Enter your tank temperature and choose F or C, whichever applies.
6. Click Calculate.
The number you want to know is the one for NH3.
[* If your kit measures ammonia as nitrogen aka –N, choose NH-N (NH3-N + NH4-N) in step 1. above.]
Why do you want this number? Because, to get a tank cycled you need to have ammonia (and nitrite) present and you want to have as much total ammonia present as possible without causing permanent harm to the fish. And it is the NH3 that will cause the real harm. Your goal is to allow the total ammonia to rise as high as possible as long as the NH3 content does not get to .05 ppm using that calculator.
Hint: As a rule, problems from ammonia become increasingly serious as one’s pH goes above 8.0 and by 8.5 one must really be doing a fishless cycle only. This is very relevant for those keeping rift lake cichlids
The above is from one of the cycling articles on the site. But it works perfectly for the test. You are interested to see two numbers for the water in the bucket. How much ammonia is there when it arrives from the tap, how much ammonia is there after using dechlor to separate the ammonia and chlorine. But what you really want to know is specifically how much NH3 is in the water.
Then remind yourself that in a cycled tank you have bacteria to consume ammonia. As soon as it is available, they start to use it. They even have the ability to increase how much they use by a bit before they start to reproduce as a result.
So unless yuo perform the bucket experiment and the answer is that you have a real amount of Total Ammonia, and then specifically NH3 above 0.05ppm, that ammonia will not be a problem and it will be removed by your bacteria and evaporation pretty fast. And if you are still worried remind yourself that, "Activated carbon is an adsorbent that can adsorb ammonia in the form of gas with a short contact time."
edited for typoes and grammar
So,why do we add dechlor? It is supposed to be because of residual amounts in tap water. But what about ammonia which can be created when chloramine is broken down into its two parts- chlorine and ammonia? Consider first we are discussing residiual concentrations. For most of us who use municipal water there are regulations involved which dictate how much of what is permissible in the water supply. This is not very much chlorine or ammonia. It is certainly not enough to be a problem for most humans.
But fish are not human. We do not breath water. So the question, in terms of fish, becomes is the water safe in terms of chlorine and ammonia. The answer, in many cases is yes. But in the interest of better safe than sorry we have declor.
Lets not forget that in many tanks with a pH closer to neutral that ammonia in the water is mostly ammonium which is way less harmful. Next ammonia evaporates especially in when the water has the surface roiled which promotes gas exchange and allows Ammonia gas to evaporate.
If we want to we can even test this all. I can lay out a simple experiment most of us can do to determine how much residual ammonia is being created when we have chloramine in our tap and we use a dechlor which will break that down into chlorine and ammonia.
1. Put 1 gal. of tap water into a clean bucket. Test it for ammonia. If you have a test for chlorine do that as well.
2. Also, test the pH and the take the temperature of the water.
3. Add the proper (not extra) dechlor to the bucket and swish the water around to spread it.
4. Wait about 5 minutes and repeat the tests in step 1.
You will now know the concentration of Total Ammonia (NH3 + NH4) in the tank.
Now head on over to the ammonia calculator here: http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php
Then do this:
1. Choose NH (NH3 + NH4)*
2. Enter in the total ammonia reading from your test, choose ppm.
3. For a fresh water tank, enter 0 for the salinity.
4. Enter your tank’s current pH.
5. Enter your tank temperature and choose F or C, whichever applies.
6. Click Calculate.
The number you want to know is the one for NH3.
[* If your kit measures ammonia as nitrogen aka –N, choose NH-N (NH3-N + NH4-N) in step 1. above.]
Why do you want this number? Because, to get a tank cycled you need to have ammonia (and nitrite) present and you want to have as much total ammonia present as possible without causing permanent harm to the fish. And it is the NH3 that will cause the real harm. Your goal is to allow the total ammonia to rise as high as possible as long as the NH3 content does not get to .05 ppm using that calculator.
Hint: As a rule, problems from ammonia become increasingly serious as one’s pH goes above 8.0 and by 8.5 one must really be doing a fishless cycle only. This is very relevant for those keeping rift lake cichlids
The above is from one of the cycling articles on the site. But it works perfectly for the test. You are interested to see two numbers for the water in the bucket. How much ammonia is there when it arrives from the tap, how much ammonia is there after using dechlor to separate the ammonia and chlorine. But what you really want to know is specifically how much NH3 is in the water.
Then remind yourself that in a cycled tank you have bacteria to consume ammonia. As soon as it is available, they start to use it. They even have the ability to increase how much they use by a bit before they start to reproduce as a result.
So unless yuo perform the bucket experiment and the answer is that you have a real amount of Total Ammonia, and then specifically NH3 above 0.05ppm, that ammonia will not be a problem and it will be removed by your bacteria and evaporation pretty fast. And if you are still worried remind yourself that, "Activated carbon is an adsorbent that can adsorb ammonia in the form of gas with a short contact time."
edited for typoes and grammar
Last edited:
To add to the caution about Prime's ingredient that alters the chemical bonds, there is a thread about Seachem's Cupramine (ich treatment) and the OP has made us aware that Prime and Cupramine cannot be used together, this has caused them stress as they are too worried to do a water change.
Most copper treatments are paired with bonds to make them relatively safer than pure copper, this means that sometimes mixing them with other chemicals or medications might alter the bond and make them toxic.
Most copper treatments are paired with bonds to make them relatively safer than pure copper, this means that sometimes mixing them with other chemicals or medications might alter the bond and make them toxic.
Nitrite Spike - Need help
Ugh. Please be kind. As I've done more research, I realize I have probably committed about every cardinal offense a new aquarist could make. Trust me, I'm beating myself up enough for all of you. I know you need the water and aquarium stats. I'll share what I know: Fish: 2 honey gourami...
www.fishforums.net
sparkypenguin
Fish Fanatic
API Tap Water Conditioner contains
SOD.THIOSULFATE,ANDHYDROUS
EDTA TETRASODIUM SALT
The info along with other stuff can be found in the Safety Data sheets..
apifishcare.com/pdfs/AQUA%20ESSENTIAL%20SDS_1624280586.pdf
apifishcare.com/pdfs/API%20TAP%20WATER%20CONDITIONER_1625170479.pdf
It's interesting to note that the both are classed as Extreme Danger Health Hazards.
But the Aqua Essentials has an Instability Hazard level of 2 which is "Violent Chemical Change" where as the Tap Conditioner has a zero rating.
Based on the reduced number of ingredients and the lower Hazard ratings I suspect that the Tap Conditioner is a "cleaner" product than the Essentials???
The safety data sheet for the Prime is pretty basic with little information - https://www.aquariumspecialty.com/media/wysiwyg/Prime.doc.pdf
To treat 100 gallons of tap water Prime works out as approx. £1.96 and API tap water conditioner approx. £2.20.
I'm not sure about the Aqua Essentials as I could not find a price for gallon container but looking at the smaller containers and the dosage I think it would be cheaper to use either the Prime or the API tap water conditioner instead.
So thinking about this first response I got from Seachem they are stating that 2 drops per gallon will treat 4ppm of Chlorine or Chloramine.
However I believe that Chloramine is more resilient than Chlorine and if that is true then surely you can use less than 2 drops per gallon if you know you only have Chlorine?
Also they say that if levels are below 4ppm then still use 2 drops per gallon, I wonder why as surely the dosage could be less or am I simplifying it too much?
More questions than answers!
It would be interesting to do some tests on tap water before and after if anyone has the correct equipment and feels like doing some chemistry experiments?
Also it must be noted that these products are also designed to help with heavy metals, and the detoxification of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.
So if you have any of these present in your tap water at high levels then this would complicate the dosage calculation.
sparkypenguin
Fish Fanatic
I have read that the Chlorine is not actually harmful to the fish but it kills the bacteria which has a knock on effect.
Is this true or is it an example of misinformation?
I forgot to dechlorinate once. Seeing the fish charge around the tank trying to get out tells me the chlorine is immediately harmful. Their reaction made me realise my mistake and I quickly added dechlorinaor. They instantly calmed down.I have read that the Chlorine is not actually harmful to the fish but it kills the bacteria which has a knock on effect.
Is this true or is it an example of misinformation?
I have read that the Chlorine is not actually harmful to the fish but it kills the bacteria which has a knock on effect.
Is this true or is it an example of misinformation?
False on both counts. Chlorine is harmful to fish, it burns their gills. Chlorine will not kill most of the bacteria, depending upon the level, but at levels in approved tap water a test showed than more than half the nitrifying bacteria were very much alive after chlorine and chloramine.
sparkypenguin
Fish Fanatic
This is the water conditioner with the least ingredients, which is why I use it
Thiosulfate removes chlorine (and before anyone objects to the word 'remove', what it actually does is convert chlorine to chloride
)EDTA binds metals.
Nothing to 'stimulate the slime coat', no chemical to detoxify ammonia, nitrite or nitrate.
Interestingly, I did a stock search on local stores. Every fish selling store around here sells Prime, and a couple sell the aloe stuff. We do not have chloramines, and with the exception of one small area, have soft acid tapwater from blackwater lakes..
I was finally able to find API tap water conditioner in a store that sells animal feed and has one little shelf of fish stuff. Imagine selling good, basic water treatments without bells and whistles. I'm going over today to get some - I feel like a cultural rebel ditching Seachem in the modern aquarium hobby. Brand loyalties run deep in the hobby.
I was finally able to find API tap water conditioner in a store that sells animal feed and has one little shelf of fish stuff. Imagine selling good, basic water treatments without bells and whistles. I'm going over today to get some - I feel like a cultural rebel ditching Seachem in the modern aquarium hobby. Brand loyalties run deep in the hobby.
I have to buy my API TWC on line. The only local shop which stocked it closed years ago. Those shops which sell API products usually stock StressCoat
Playsander
Fish Crazy
I have used Prime for years with no issues and it's expensive here in the UK.
Maybe I will switch to API.
Maybe I will switch to API.
Alice B
Fish Herder
Aeration works if no chloramines
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
Actually, the residual chlorine or chloramine in tap water will not harm your bacteria. The reason is because they live in a biofilm which protects them from many things. Research has been done on this.
But first, here is a challenge. Try finding out how to detoxify ammonia. Do not use any aquarium related site as providing the answer. Instead, on your own find an explanation of how ammonia can be detoxified that does not rely on bacteria, i.e. a non-biological solution. What you will find is it is almost impossible to do in an aquarium chemically. You should encounter API Ammo Lock. This makes ammonia safe, but it does nothing for chlorine or chloramine. Ammonnia is reduced by oxidation and dechlor is a reducing agent. How can a reducing agent be an oxdizer at the same time. The answer is it cannot.
Now back to chlorine and chloramine and how harmful they might be. First, chloramine doesn't kill the bacteria, it basically puts them to sleep. But ammonia present will keep them alive and wakes them up when the chlorine is gone. Chlorine is more deadly, but it takes a whole lot longer to penetrate the biofilm than does chloramine. Given the lower residual levels, the biofilm protection and the fact that chlorine evaporates and ammonia feeds the bacteria, this explains why, in most cases, neither one will hurt your biofilter. Rather it is the fish and inverts which are more at risk than the bacteria. If you do some searching of my posts on this site you will see that I have posted some of the papers which support the above.
Finally, chloramine is used because it remains viable longer than chlorine. The problem is the ammonia that it leaves behind when it breaks down. That residual ammonia in the water supply, and especially in home plumbing, fosters the colonization of nitrifyers in our pipes wspecially wherever we infrequently run water though them. This is from where the bacreria to jump start a cycle usually comes form the municiapl water or our own home plumbing.
The real danger is not from the normal low residual levels of chlorine or chloramine in most municipal water. It is when the levels of these disinfectanst rise above that due to something done by the water company of which we are not aware. They may need to do flush with increased chlorine/chloramine. This would necessitate the use of dechlor for sure. So, at a normal dose, it makes sense to use dechlor JIK.
Bear in mind that the use of dechlor in the hobby began when water treatment was much less advanced than it is today. According to the EPA "Chloramines have been used by water utilities since the 1930s. More than one in five Americans uses drinking water treated with chloramines. Apr 18, 2022." So today, in the states, 4 ot of 5 of municipal water supply systems still uses chlorine as the primary disinfectant.
The science shows that chlorine is way more toxic to the bacteria than chloramine, but the biofilm can protect the bacteria for a while from the chlorine which gives it time to evaporate or to be neutralized by dechlor. Research shows that chloramine penetrates the biofilm aadbout 25 times faster than chlorine. And the reality is the amount of ammonia that comes from chloramine breaking down feeds the bacteria but could harm the fish if it is high enough and/or around for long enough.
So, it makes sense to use dechlor, but it doesn't make sense to overdose it without evidence that is necessary. The only way tpo know that is to test for chlorine or chloramine in one's tap water. On the other hand, dosing just the needed amount is safe and easy, so it makes sense to be sfe rather than sorry.
But there us another side to all of this which Byron so often reminds us. Anything we add to the water interacts with the fish because they breath and swallow water 24/7. Any chemical we add to our tanks has the potential to be a problem, especially if it is overdosed. Just because something is good does not mean that more is necessarily better. About the only time I overdose anything is in the rare case of columnaris where the first round of antibiotic treatment failed to do the job. If I have to do a second round, I increase the dosage by 50%.
I do not overdose fertilizer or Excel for carbon. I do not overdose meds save the above case which is rare.
But first, here is a challenge. Try finding out how to detoxify ammonia. Do not use any aquarium related site as providing the answer. Instead, on your own find an explanation of how ammonia can be detoxified that does not rely on bacteria, i.e. a non-biological solution. What you will find is it is almost impossible to do in an aquarium chemically. You should encounter API Ammo Lock. This makes ammonia safe, but it does nothing for chlorine or chloramine. Ammonnia is reduced by oxidation and dechlor is a reducing agent. How can a reducing agent be an oxdizer at the same time. The answer is it cannot.
Now back to chlorine and chloramine and how harmful they might be. First, chloramine doesn't kill the bacteria, it basically puts them to sleep. But ammonia present will keep them alive and wakes them up when the chlorine is gone. Chlorine is more deadly, but it takes a whole lot longer to penetrate the biofilm than does chloramine. Given the lower residual levels, the biofilm protection and the fact that chlorine evaporates and ammonia feeds the bacteria, this explains why, in most cases, neither one will hurt your biofilter. Rather it is the fish and inverts which are more at risk than the bacteria. If you do some searching of my posts on this site you will see that I have posted some of the papers which support the above.
Finally, chloramine is used because it remains viable longer than chlorine. The problem is the ammonia that it leaves behind when it breaks down. That residual ammonia in the water supply, and especially in home plumbing, fosters the colonization of nitrifyers in our pipes wspecially wherever we infrequently run water though them. This is from where the bacreria to jump start a cycle usually comes form the municiapl water or our own home plumbing.
The real danger is not from the normal low residual levels of chlorine or chloramine in most municipal water. It is when the levels of these disinfectanst rise above that due to something done by the water company of which we are not aware. They may need to do flush with increased chlorine/chloramine. This would necessitate the use of dechlor for sure. So, at a normal dose, it makes sense to use dechlor JIK.
Bear in mind that the use of dechlor in the hobby began when water treatment was much less advanced than it is today. According to the EPA "Chloramines have been used by water utilities since the 1930s. More than one in five Americans uses drinking water treated with chloramines. Apr 18, 2022." So today, in the states, 4 ot of 5 of municipal water supply systems still uses chlorine as the primary disinfectant.
The science shows that chlorine is way more toxic to the bacteria than chloramine, but the biofilm can protect the bacteria for a while from the chlorine which gives it time to evaporate or to be neutralized by dechlor. Research shows that chloramine penetrates the biofilm aadbout 25 times faster than chlorine. And the reality is the amount of ammonia that comes from chloramine breaking down feeds the bacteria but could harm the fish if it is high enough and/or around for long enough.
So, it makes sense to use dechlor, but it doesn't make sense to overdose it without evidence that is necessary. The only way tpo know that is to test for chlorine or chloramine in one's tap water. On the other hand, dosing just the needed amount is safe and easy, so it makes sense to be sfe rather than sorry.
But there us another side to all of this which Byron so often reminds us. Anything we add to the water interacts with the fish because they breath and swallow water 24/7. Any chemical we add to our tanks has the potential to be a problem, especially if it is overdosed. Just because something is good does not mean that more is necessarily better. About the only time I overdose anything is in the rare case of columnaris where the first round of antibiotic treatment failed to do the job. If I have to do a second round, I increase the dosage by 50%.
I do not overdose fertilizer or Excel for carbon. I do not overdose meds save the above case which is rare.
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