Api Quick Start / Fishless Cycle Test
- Thread starter Yanks15
- Start date
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
As expected would not quite be as advertised. I bought the bottle good for a 30 gal tank but actually used about 1/2 each in two different tanks. My normal practice when setting up a new tank for some number of years has been to use a combination of media, substrate and decor from cycled tanks combined with plants from my excess plant bin to instantly cycle a tank. By this I mean I am using enough seeding and live plant help that the tank can be fully stocked as soon as it is set up. To be on the safe side I usually dose some ammonia and test to male sure the tank is indeed good-to-go.
However, last year I was setting up a tank to receive wild caught Altum angels. To do this properly, I could not use media from other tanks. I could not risk having other bacteria or "germs" coming in from another tank as newly imported wild Altums would quickly succumb to any nasties. So I needed to set up a new tank and get it cycled without using stuff from other tanks. Even the plants I used in the set up went through a bleach dip.
My solution was to use DrTim's One and Only and his ammonium chloride to do the fishless cycle with a jump start on a 29 gal. tank. However, since I was only using half the bottle I did have to get the bacterial colonies up to strength by finishing up fishlessly. This process was further lengthened by the need to drop the pH to about 6.5 after the tank was fully cycled for 7.1/.2. This took an additional few weeks.
The second half of the bottle was used to cycle a 2nd 29 gal about 6 weeks later which first served as a Q tank for corys and tetras and now is a growout for L450 fry. That tank cycled more rapidly- if I recall in about 2 weeks which is about double the time the whole bottle is advertised as taking. So I would say it worked pretty much as advertised when used at 1/2 strength.
Dr. Hovanec maintains if you follow his directions for getting a tank up and fully cycled fishlessly, that you should be able to have a tank good to go in 5-7 days. I have no reason to doubt this.
As for the API stuff. One thing put me off, and this is their claim that their product can be kept room temp for a few years and will still work fine. I do not believe this claim and therefore I do not trust their product. I do not use Stability since it contains no live bacteria nor any of the autotrophic bacteria bacteria we want in tanks long term.
Finally, I am in the camp which believes that 1-2 ppm (3ppm max) dosing of ammonia is sufficient for a good fishless cycle and that daily dosing is not needed as well. I also am in the camp that advocates never letting ammonia or nitrite levels exceed 5 ppm.
IMO there is a very simple way to know if a tank is cycled, it is the same one mentioned often in this regard. Dose 2 ppm of ammonia into the tank. If in 24 hours you can test 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and your nitrates have risen (save in a well planted tank where the nitrates may be consumed by the plants), then you are cycled. In fact, I normally test in 2-3 hours. Often I get the 0s then But if not, I test again in 12 hours. I have never had to test beyond 12 as I seem to have good enough results that all is clearly OK at that point. However, I would say the acid test is that this all happen w/i 24 hours- fewer is a bonus.
As for you situation, it is hard to tell what effect the API product may be having due to how your are doing things. What I can see is no increase in nitrates- usually a sign the cycle is not moving much. Also- there is a huge difference between 2 ppm and 5 ppm of nitrite. One should result in water changes to bring the number down and the other should not. I am a big fan of Dr. Hovanec. I would suggest you read the short version of fishless cycling on his site here A Quick Guide To Fishless Cycling click on the link after the short version to see a much more detailed information about the process.
I should also say that some folks here are not fans of Dr. Hovanec. However I suggest you decide for yourself rather than trusting just my opinion or anyone else's.
However, last year I was setting up a tank to receive wild caught Altum angels. To do this properly, I could not use media from other tanks. I could not risk having other bacteria or "germs" coming in from another tank as newly imported wild Altums would quickly succumb to any nasties. So I needed to set up a new tank and get it cycled without using stuff from other tanks. Even the plants I used in the set up went through a bleach dip.
My solution was to use DrTim's One and Only and his ammonium chloride to do the fishless cycle with a jump start on a 29 gal. tank. However, since I was only using half the bottle I did have to get the bacterial colonies up to strength by finishing up fishlessly. This process was further lengthened by the need to drop the pH to about 6.5 after the tank was fully cycled for 7.1/.2. This took an additional few weeks.
The second half of the bottle was used to cycle a 2nd 29 gal about 6 weeks later which first served as a Q tank for corys and tetras and now is a growout for L450 fry. That tank cycled more rapidly- if I recall in about 2 weeks which is about double the time the whole bottle is advertised as taking. So I would say it worked pretty much as advertised when used at 1/2 strength.
Dr. Hovanec maintains if you follow his directions for getting a tank up and fully cycled fishlessly, that you should be able to have a tank good to go in 5-7 days. I have no reason to doubt this.
As for the API stuff. One thing put me off, and this is their claim that their product can be kept room temp for a few years and will still work fine. I do not believe this claim and therefore I do not trust their product. I do not use Stability since it contains no live bacteria nor any of the autotrophic bacteria bacteria we want in tanks long term.
Finally, I am in the camp which believes that 1-2 ppm (3ppm max) dosing of ammonia is sufficient for a good fishless cycle and that daily dosing is not needed as well. I also am in the camp that advocates never letting ammonia or nitrite levels exceed 5 ppm.
IMO there is a very simple way to know if a tank is cycled, it is the same one mentioned often in this regard. Dose 2 ppm of ammonia into the tank. If in 24 hours you can test 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and your nitrates have risen (save in a well planted tank where the nitrates may be consumed by the plants), then you are cycled. In fact, I normally test in 2-3 hours. Often I get the 0s then But if not, I test again in 12 hours. I have never had to test beyond 12 as I seem to have good enough results that all is clearly OK at that point. However, I would say the acid test is that this all happen w/i 24 hours- fewer is a bonus.
As for you situation, it is hard to tell what effect the API product may be having due to how your are doing things. What I can see is no increase in nitrates- usually a sign the cycle is not moving much. Also- there is a huge difference between 2 ppm and 5 ppm of nitrite. One should result in water changes to bring the number down and the other should not. I am a big fan of Dr. Hovanec. I would suggest you read the short version of fishless cycling on his site here A Quick Guide To Fishless Cycling click on the link after the short version to see a much more detailed information about the process.
I should also say that some folks here are not fans of Dr. Hovanec. However I suggest you decide for yourself rather than trusting just my opinion or anyone else's.
Thanks for the info TwoTankAmin. I was thinking it may have stalled because of the constant readings of NO2 & NO3. It took 5 days for NH3 to get to 0 in 12hrs but the others have not moved. I post NO2 @ 2-5ppm only because the color is almost the same on the API chart card. It could be one or the other. I am going to do a big WC and see what happens. I dose up 24hrs based on what I have read and the success of others. I also cut back the dosing to 2-3ppm of NH3. I do understand that the nitrites take longer to process so I'm not trying to rush it but to determine if the product has any effect based on others cycling time.
I was told only to use those products with fish in the tank because the new bacteria that is introduced will die. Witch makes sense because bacteria is a living organism and needs to feed. If that is the case then your fish less test will continually have horrible reading because the product is no longer present.If you look at all of API's testing it was performed with fish and all of the other similar products testing was done the same. So I'm thinking there is some truth to the bacteria dieing with out fish being present in the start up.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
Virtually everything in that statement is not factually correct.
- The bacteria can survive for extended periods without food or oxygen.
- The food need not come from fish, almost any ammonia will do.
- The OP clearly states he is dosing ammonia, so the bacteria are being fed.
- I have researched API's product and I have not seen that their testing was done with fish.
- I have researched the other products much more thoroughly and they most certainly are able to work fine for cycling fishlessly and very fast as well. They were tested in labs.
The OP clearly states he is dosing ammonia, so the bacteria are being fed.
I appreciate the response and no disrespect intended but I think I did my homework on this product and I dose as a typical fishless cycle so the bacteria is being fed. The idea was to see if this product with aide in cycling the tank faster. I'm not so sure about the API testing you found but I believe the testing I found was done without fish. Maybe they did multiple tests.
OK, fair enough. But do you understand that I am dosing NH3? I don't need fish. If you are not familiar with a Fishless Cycle, they have great information on this site. You should check it out. It's so much better than putting any fish at risk. I've done it that way before and lost plenty of fish.
TwoTankAmin
Fish Connoisseur
That API study is not scientific nor published anywhere except their site. I do not know when they added the link to the pdf to their site but I did not see when I went there a few months ago. However, the presentation in that pdf is what I would expect from a high school level report.
The sort of things you find here would be the kind of science one should see http
/www.mendeley.com/research/improved-nitrifying-enrichment-remove-ammonium-nitrite-freshwater-aquaria-systems/
But here is what I find most interesting in the API studty: "Nitrite removal required an average of 34 days in the untreated Control aquariums and 24 days in the "Quick Start- treated aquariums." Also, why do they not use any media in the filters? (For those folks who keep saying the bacteria is almost all in the filter- note they cycled tanks with gravel but no filter media.)
Now go to Dr. Hovanec's site for One and Only Nitrifying bacteria and you will read that by using his product to cycle a tank without fish and dosing ammonia twice, you have a fully cycled tank in 5-7 days- that means 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite and able to handle a full fish load. But, if you want to use it with fish, it is safe to be adding additional fish in about a week vs API where you need 24 days to 0 out nitrite. Hmmm.
The sort of things you find here would be the kind of science one should see http
/www.mendeley.com/research/improved-nitrifying-enrichment-remove-ammonium-nitrite-freshwater-aquaria-systems/But here is what I find most interesting in the API studty: "Nitrite removal required an average of 34 days in the untreated Control aquariums and 24 days in the "Quick Start- treated aquariums." Also, why do they not use any media in the filters? (For those folks who keep saying the bacteria is almost all in the filter- note they cycled tanks with gravel but no filter media.)
Now go to Dr. Hovanec's site for One and Only Nitrifying bacteria and you will read that by using his product to cycle a tank without fish and dosing ammonia twice, you have a fully cycled tank in 5-7 days- that means 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite and able to handle a full fish load. But, if you want to use it with fish, it is safe to be adding additional fish in about a week vs API where you need 24 days to 0 out nitrite. Hmmm.
That API study is not scientific nor published anywhere except their site. I do not know when they added the link to the pdf to their site but I did not see when I went there a few months ago. However, the presentation in that pdf is what I would expect from a high school level report.
The sort of things you find here would be the kind of science one should see http
But here is what I find most interesting in the API studty: "Nitrite removal required an average of 34 days in the untreated Control aquariums and 24 days in the "Quick Start- treated aquariums." Also, why do they not use any media in the filters? (For those folks who keep saying the bacteria is almost all in the filter- note they cycled tanks with gravel but no filter media.)
Now go to Dr. Hovanec's site for One and Only Nitrifying bacteria and you will read that by using his product to cycle a tank without fish and dosing ammonia twice, you have a fully cycled tank in 5-7 days- that means 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite and able to handle a full fish load. But, if you want to use it with fish, it is safe to be adding additional fish in about a week vs API where you need 24 days to 0 out nitrite. Hmmm.
As you know from the start, the whole idea of this was to see if the product made any difference in cycling a tank. I feel fairly sure that if it has done anything at all that it hasn't been much. I do feel that I've seen NO2 levels drop to 0 fairly quickly compared to others I've read about. NO3 showed @ first test, 5 days, and doubled after 10 days. Being only my first fishless cycle, I'm not able to compare these stats to others that I have done before. My hopes were that other, more experienced folks here would decide.
It looks to me like it has given you a start on ammonia processing but you are no where near close to being cycled based on your 4 July readings for nitrite. Anything that helps helps but it would not be safe to add fish to that tank even now after 2 weeks. Keep up with the testing, we may yet find that it has helped a bit because it got your ammonia processing off to a good start.
I plan on taking this right to a fully tested fishless cycle. I have actually stopped testing @ 12 hrs for a few days until I see an appreciable drop in NO2. I thought possibly of doing a WC but figured I'd let it come down on it's own. I'll be very happy if I'm cycled in another 2 weeks. We'll see.
Thanks
Steve
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