Another Ich Question?

[rpgmomma8404]

Should I take everything out of the tank (like fake plants, caves and such) and boil them in hot water? I've read that some where but I wasn't sure if that is the best course of action. I put aquarium salt in both 10 and 15 gallon tanks (realized both were infested). 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I love copy paste

 

Freshwater Ich
Symptoms: Fish look like they have little white salt grains on them and may scratch against objects in the tank.White spot disease (Ichthyopthirius multifiliis) is caused by a protozoan with a life cycle that includes a free-living stage. Ich grows on a fish --> it falls off and attaches to gravel or tank glass --> it reproduces to MANY parasites --> these swarmers then attach to other fish. If the swarmers do not find a fish host, they die in about 3 days (depending on the water temperature).

Therefore, to treat it, medicine must be added to the display tank to kill free-living parasites. If fish are removed to quarantine, parasites living in the tank will escape the treatment -- unless ALL fish are removed for about a week in freshwater or three weeks in saltwater systems. In a reef tank, where invertebrates are sensitive to ich medications, removing the fish is the only option. Some people think that ich is probably dormant in most tanks. It is most often triggered by temperature fluctuations.
 
Remedy: For most fish, use a medication with formalin and malachite green. These are the active ingredients in many ich medications at fish shops. Some products are Kordon's Rid Ich and Aquarium Products' Quick Cure. Just read the label and you may find others. Check for temperature fluctuations in the tank and fix them to avoid recurrences. Note that tetras can be a little sensitive to malachite green, so use it at half the dose.
 
Use these products as directed (usually a daily dose) until all of the fish are spot-free. Then dose every three days for a total of four more doses. This will kill any free-swimming parasites as they hatch out of cysts.
 
Another remedy is to raise the tank temperature to about 90 deg F and add 1 tsp/gallon salt to the water. Not all fish tolerate this.
 
Finally, one can treat ich with a ``transfer method.'' Fish are moved daily into a different tank with clean, conditioned, warmed water. Parasites that came off of the fish are left behind in the tank. After moving the fish daily for a week, the fish (presumably cured) can be put back into the main tank. The disadvantage of this method is that it stresses both fish and fishkeeper.

from http/fins.actwin.com/aquariafaq.html

 

[NeonBlueLeon]

There's really no need for that.  Keep them in the tank(s) that are undergoing salt treatment and the salt will take care of that.  I'm not sure how much you know about the ich lifecycle but once they get into the free-swimming stage, they'll get killed by the salt.
 
Treating with salt can make live plants sad, so I would take live plants out of a tank that needs to be salted.  Obviously, don't boil live plants.  Without a host, the ich parasite will simply die.  There is no dormant stage for the ich parasite.
 
Hope this helps!

 
EDIT: I always mention this about ich medication.  I've used a handful of meds that contain copper, malachite/aniline, formalin.  As far as my experience goes, these either don't work at all or work slowly.  Salt and heat is my go-to fix for ich, and it has never failed me yet.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

And now for some science on the subject.
 
Treatments for Ich Infestations in Channel Catfish Evaluated under Static and Flow-Through Water Conditions
 
Darlene M. Tieman & Andrew E. Goodwin
University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff, Department of Aquaculture/Fisheries, Mail Slot 4912, 1200 North University Drive, Pine Bluff, Arkansas, 71601, USA
 
North American Journal of Aquaculture Volume 63, Issue 4, 2001
 



Abstract


In response to producer reports of poor efficacy using published treatments against Ichthyophthirius multifiliis (ich) infestations of channel catfish Ictalurus punctatus, we initiated a preliminary study to see which of the compounds that are permissible in food-fish aquaculture were efficacious under what we judged to be ideal laboratory conditions. We planned to use the results of this work as a basis for further study in the field. In our studies we used fingerling catfish in glass aquariums with stable water quality and daily treatments in both static and flow-through water systems. In some experiments, infested fish and healthy fish were stocked together so that the ability of the treatment to eliminate preexisting infestations could be examined separately from the treatment's ability to block transmission. Malachite green and methylene blue were used as positive controls, and untreated fish were used as the negative control for efficacy. Treatments with sodium chloride, hydrogen peroxide, potassium permanganate, elevated temperatures, chloramine-T, povidone iodine, and high flow rates were ineffective under all conditions and concentrations tested. Alternate-day treatments with formalin at 25 and 50 mg/L in static water or 100 mg/L in flow-through water aquariums were not effective at eliminating infestations or preventing fish-to-fish transmission. Daily treatments with 50 mg/L formalin in static water or 100 mg/L formalin in flow-through water aquariums were toxic to channel catfish. Formalin at 25 mg/L in static water aquariums was effective at eliminating infestations and reducing fish-to-fish transmission when used as a daily treatment. Copper sulfate was effective in blocking the infestation of healthy fish, but it did not eliminate established infestations on channel catfish, even after 20 daily treatments under static conditions. Malachite green and methylene blue eliminated established infestations on fish, whereas copper only prevented transmission; this suggests that the dyes are able to penetrate deeply or act systemically, allowing them to kill subcutaneous stages of ich. Further field trials were not pursued because none of the legal or economically viable treatments showed efficacy under presumably ideal laboratory conditions.
 
From http/www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8454%282001%29063%3C0293%3ATFIIIC%3E2.0.CO%3B2
 
What is really interesting is that:
"The common parasitic ciliate Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is one of the most important protozoan pathogens of freshwater fish throughout the world. It has a serious impact on aquaculture due to its widespread distribution, indiscriminate host specificity, and high level of virulence. Disease outbreaks usually result in high mortality rates, primarily in intensively reared populations of fish. Fish that recover from natural or experimentally induced sublethal infections, however, become resistant to subsequent I. multifiliis challenge."
 
read the full study here http/cvi.asm.org/content/10/5/876.full

 

[NeonBlueLeon]

Efficacy of Different Salt (NaCl) Concentrations in the Treatment of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis-Infected Silver Catfish, Rhamdia quelen, Fingerlings

Denise S. Miron, Lenise V. F. Silva, Jaqueline I. Golombieski & Bernardo Baldisserotto

Journal of Applied Aquaculture, Volume 14, Issue 1-2, 2003



ABSTRACT


The objective of this study was to evaluate different salt concentrations in the treatment of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. Silver catfish, Rhamdia quelen, fingerlings infected with I. multifiliis were submitted to four sodium chloride concentrations (g/L): 0,1,2, and 4 for 23 days. In a second experiment, fingerlings were maintained with 4 g/L salt, but for 45 days. Treatments with 2 and 4 g/L salt significantly increased fingerling survival compared with 0 and 1 g/L, and survival was significantly correlated with salt concentrations. In the second experiment, fish maintained at 4 g/L salt showed a gradual reduction of “white spots” and survival was 100%. Therefore, salt offers an alternative for treatment of silver catfish fingerlings infected with I. multifiliis.
 
Link
 
This one is a little more recent, and addresses sodium chloride (salt) quantitatively.

 

 

[rpgmomma8404]

Yeah, I'm doing the salt and heat treatment. Luckily I don't have any live plants yet. Hoping to nip this in the booty before I start looking for live plants. I've been reading about different stuff and saw taking stuff out and cleaning it was mention. Was wondering if I should do that.
 
One of my betta's is having a super hard time with the ich. He just seems like he's depress. Hides most of the time (thought he was dead today because he never came out of his hiding spot, we almost had to force him out to see if he was okay). Doesn't move around the tank that much other then to scratch himself. I raised the temps in both tanks but it only looks like I'm sitting at 84 with them both right now. I'm going to raise the heaters up a tiny bit more. I just hate messing with the heaters, 

. Scared I might accidentally turn it up too much. 

 

[NeonBlueLeon]

I wouldn't bother taking things out and washing them.  The salt will take care of the ich as soon as it leaves the dormant life stage.  The key to any kind of ich treatment is to keep treating for at least three days after there are no visible ich spots.  This will ensure that 1) there are no ich spots hidden in the gills of the fish, and 2) a full life cycle of ich has passed and has been eradicated.  I usually keep treatment for five days after I see no spots.
 
I'm not sure about bettas and heat, but I've had one of my 20 gallons at 90 degrees once.  I had rummy noses and a pair of mollies in it at the time.  The rummy noses that underwent that treatment are still alive and healthy now.
 
A severe outbreak of ich will make fish seem depressed or lethargic because the parasite is essentially feeding off of the fish.
 
Ich is always nasty to deal with.  Good luck, and keep us posted!

 

[rpgmomma8404]

I wouldn't bother taking things out and washing them.  The salt will take care of the ich as soon as it leaves the dormant life stage.  The key to any kind of ich treatment is to keep treating for at least three days after there are no visible ich spots.  This will ensure that 1) there are no ich spots hidden in the gills of the fish, and 2) a full life cycle of ich has passed and has been eradicated.  I usually keep treatment for five days after I see no spots.
 
I'm not sure about bettas and heat, but I've had one of my 20 gallons at 90 degrees once.  I had rummy noses and a pair of mollies in it at the time.  The rummy noses that underwent that treatment are still alive and healthy now.

 
A severe outbreak of ich will make fish seem depressed or lethargic because the parasite is essentially feeding off of the fish.
 
Ich is always nasty to deal with.  Good luck, and keep us posted!

 
Oh I was wondering about them being depressed and stuff. My blue betta has been hiding a lot. I checked them both this morning and now the red one is infested with ich. He's hiding too but I haven't gotten a really good look at him. He'll come out when I'm out of the room and as soon as I go back in their he goes into hiding.
 
Should I add more salt?
 
I'm almost having issues with the temperature keeping steady. Seems to drop down dramatically at night no matter what the heater is set up at. I'm really irritated right now and not sure what to do at this point. 
 
The ich seems to be clearing up pretty well in my 15 gallon although most of the fish only had one or two spots here and there. Even though the temperature in that tank just doesn't seem to want to go up any further then it is. Only thing I can think of is putting the heater on full blast but I don't know if I should risk it. It's one of those heaters that doesn't have any numbers on the nob so you kind of have to guess and hope the temp is going to be okay. I bought it from someone and don't know what brand it is. 
 
I had both heaters in a horizontal position but yesterday moved then into a vertical. Tried to put them as close as I could to the filter intake tube so it would suck up the water and circulate the heat better. I'm not sure if that was the right thing to do though. 

 

[Meeresstille]

I think it is better if you place the heater rather diagonally. The warm water will rise upwards and with the heater in the vertical position the rising warmth will give the thermostat in your heater a false indication of the temperature in your tank. The heater will turn off and heat the water less.
 
Unless you have the heat at a very high temperature it won't kill the parasite, and most fish would not tolerate heat at that level anyways, all the warmer water does is speed up the life cycle of the parasite so you can get treatment over quickly. If your heater is not able to warm the water more (give the highest setting a try, but monitor the temperature of your tank closely) all that means is that it may take a little longer to get rid of the ich.
 
If you are using the heat-salt treatment make sure you treat for at least 14 days after you've seen the last ich spot on any of your fish! In cooler water I would go longer, at least 21 days!

 

[NeonBlueLeon]

How much salt do you have per gallon now?

 

[rpgmomma8404]

How much salt do you have per gallon now?

15 gallon, I put three tablespoons as suggested. 
 
10 gallon, I only put one tablespoon even though I could have put in two (I didn't want to risk hurting the betta's). I talked to a friend of mine who has a few fish tanks and she told me I should have put in two like it was suggested so I put in the second tablespoon of salt the next day. 
 
I haven't added anymore then what I put in both tanks.
 
The betta's are eating now which they haven't been eating too much and are coming out more from their hiding places. They still look pretty bad though. I'm not as worried about them as a was but I'm still concerned.
 
Ich in my 15 gallon is pretty much gone but I'm keeping the temperature up for the rest of the week just in case. 

 

[NeonBlueLeon]

So it sounds like you've got 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons.  As long as the ionic concentration is high enough to halt osmosis in the ich tomonts and thermonts.
 
I'm glad your 15 gallon is showing improvement.  I go by 5 days of spot-free before deeming the fish and tank clear of ich.  Of course, the more the better.  One must also take temperature into account since the life cycle of ich is 3-4 days in very warm water, but can be months in cold water (like an outdoor goldfish/koi pond).  Regardless, the longer you wait, the better.
 
Keep us posted, and good job so far!

 

[rpgmomma8404]

Just a little update. The betta's are acting wonderful this morning. They both still have ich. Right now the red betta is still really infested but he's very perky and playful this morning. He would go into his hiding spot and then pop his little head out and come out. Then rush back in there (goofy fish). Only thing I've noticed is the fins are looking a little rough on both fish.
 
I don't know if it would be fin rot or just the stress of them being sick with ich. 
 
I am hopeful they are going to make a full recovery. 

 

[rpgmomma8404]

Oh I just thought of something. Would it be safe to do a water change today in both tanks? I tested the water in my 10 gallon and realize the nitrates are a little higher then they have been. It's looking around 40ppm. I usually do them on Fridays but with all the ich issue I wasn't sure if that was a good idea right now. 

 

[Meeresstille]

It's a good thing to do water changes even during the heat salt treatment. It's a chance to pick up any parasites that have nested themselves into the substrate. Calculate how much salt you are removing with the amount of water that you are removing and add that amount of salt back in. Make sure to dissolve the salt well before you add it to the tank.