New Fish QT: Can Kordon Rid Ich Plus & Hikari PraziPro be used together?

[GaryE]

If I stumbled across a well known company that suggested using antibiotics blindly, I would have nothing to do with them. Right there, zero credibility. There are some idiotic things said online by shortsighted, make a quick buck people, and part of the hobby is learning that you may well know better than the self proclaimed expert. I will always take a serious look at statements from scientists working in the field, but a loud guy with a bad haircut who tells us what to do? That kind of person probably has no more training, education or research background than I do - just a lot of confidence and a platform.

Your questions about the three drug recipe are good ones.

You can use salt, or not. It likely doesn't matter either way, and you know your water more than we do. I consider it a harsh chemical that should only be used in a well targeted manner, but I am in a minority there. Prazi will get the most common type of worms, if they are present. 'White" worms or gutworms are not always problems, even when present. The Fritz stuff works on nematodes, which are trouble. But that's a rough med on the fish. It's gold if the fish are infested, and it saves their lives, but you don't do chemo on the off chance you have cancer.

I'm not part of the anti-med wing of the hobby. We have our anti things that work, reality denying crew like any other human group. I just think that you only use our limited meds and remedies if you have cause. We've found some chemicals that kill the things that kill our fish. They may do damage to the fish and the environment in the tank. we use them if we have to, and we should use them well.

Fish have bodies as well evolved as our own. They are extremely complex creatures. We have 3 or 4 antiparasitics, some ill defined antibiotics, and a couple of fungicides. We have pictures as diagnostic tools. We have no vaccines. No idea of internal medicine. I don't know about you, but if that was the entire arsenal a human doctor had, I'd have been dead several times over. The most common fish diseases don't even have valid treatments.

We want to do right, and people cash in on our kindness. There are meds that "fix" problems with almost no ingredients. I think they're to make us feel better. I also think a lot of the advice goes that way. I feed new arrivals (I deal with fish that have travelled for days) right away, and use no meds. I have the limited options I can get (antibiotic sales are banned here if you don't have a prescription) on hand, just in case. If I see nematodes, I hit them immediately. If I don't, the treatments sit on the shelf til they expire and are replaced.

 

[Firestorm_1976]

Update on my red-eyed lyretail swordtail "girls". Day 2 of quarantine. Arrived yesterday (1/4/2024) via mail from two different eBay sellers. Thus far, everyone is alive and well, eating bloodworms with great appetite. Dosed PraziPro last night, and the water has a standard (1 tbsp per 5 gal) dose of aquarium salt. Fingers crossed that the girls continue to do well. They are still very scared of me. I wonder if they did not have people approaching their tanks regularly before...
Thank you so much, everyone for your help!

 

[Firestorm_1976]

Please HELP! Need advice about potential fin rot ASAP. I opened a new post about here it https://www.fishforums.net/threads/fin-rot-or-bite-new-fish-quarantine.491601/#post-4307403

 

[Firestorm_1976]

I thought I'd update everyone. The "girls" are long done with QT and are doing well. Thank you everyone for your help!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

BTW , as it is after the fact. There is no reason to temperature acclimate the fish. If the water in the tank is in the proper temp. range for the fish, there is nothing gained by floating the bags. If the bag water is too cold or too hot such that it may harm or kill the fish, the proper solution is to move the fish into the proper temp. water ASAP.. mo acclimation as it may mean the difference between living and dying.

I have received a ton of fish shipped to me and I have shipped a fair number of fish as well. Most folks tend to over think this stuff and that usually results in more harm than good. The fish I breed live in warmer water. I keep them in the mid 80sF. But when I ship them I ship them cooler. The cooler water makes them less active which is a good thing in transit. However, cooler means only near the lower end of their normal temp. range. I like to think of a fish bag as being a sleeping bag for the trip.

I never acclimate new fish, there is no benefit to doing so and it can do harm. Fish exhale ammonia. So when in a bag there is constantly ammonia and CO2 being exhaled. The CO2 is acidic and it causes the pH in the bag water to drop. This is a good thing because a lower pH makes ammonia way less toxic.

Now you get the fish and as soon as you open the bag the gasses normalize. Excess co2 is out gassed and oxygen comes in. But as the CO2 leaves, so doe the acid from it and the pH starts to rise. As it does the non-toxic ammonia will turn toxic. The longer the fish have been in the bag, the more important it is to get them out ASAP after the bag is opened.

I do not ever treat fish unless I know there is a reason to do so. I do not believe in prophylactic treatment. As noted inother posts it can do more harm than good if it is the wrong med or is not really needed in the first place. And I keep a medicine kit with an assortment of meds, JIK. Often they expire unused and just get replaced. I would rather have a med an not need to use then to need to use a med and not have it.

As always, the above is my way of doing things. That doesn't necessarily make it the only way. Butr is has worked well for me so far.

 

[Firestorm_1976]

BTW , as it is after the fact. There is no reason to temperature acclimate the fish. If the water in the tank is in the proper temp. range for the fish, there is nothing gained by floating the bags. If the bag water is too cold or too hot such that it may harm or kill the fish, the proper solution is to move the fish into the proper temp. water ASAP.. mo acclimation as it may mean the difference between living and dying.

I have received a ton of fish shipped to me and I have shipped a fair number of fish as well. Most folks tend to over think this stuff and that usually results in more harm than good. The fish I breed live in warmer water. I keep them in the mid 80sF. But when I ship them I ship them cooler. The cooler water makes them less active which is a good thing in transit. However, cooler means only near the lower end of their normal temp. range. I like to think of a fish bag as being a sleeping bag for the trip.

I never acclimate new fish, there is no benefit to doing so and it can do harm. Fish exhale ammonia. So when in a bag there is constantly ammonia and CO2 being exhaled. The CO2 is acidic and it causes the pH in the bag water to drop. This is a good thing because a lower pH makes ammonia way less toxic.

Now you get the fish and as soon as you open the bag the gasses normalize. Excess co2 is out gassed and oxygen comes in. But as the CO2 leaves, so doe the acid from it and the pH starts to rise. As it does the non-toxic ammonia will turn toxic. The longer the fish have been in the bag, the more important it is to get them out ASAP after the bag is opened.

I do not ever treat fish unless I know there is a reason to do so. I do not believe in prophylactic treatment. As noted inother posts it can do more harm than good if it is the wrong med or is not really needed in the first place. And I keep a medicine kit with an assortment of meds, JIK. Often they expire unused and just get replaced. I would rather have a med an not need to use then to need to use a med and not have it.

As always, the above is my way of doing things. That doesn't necessarily make it the only way. Butr is has worked well for me so far.

Thank you so much! I did temp acclimate for ~20 min by floating the bags as they were cold to touch, but the bags were not opened until the very moment of fish transfer (d/t CO2-pH-ammonia). It's good to know that it is not necessary. Is it a myth than that fish can go into shock and die if the temp difference is over 2 F? Thanks again!

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Here are two stories which support what I posted.

I occasionally sell at weekend fish events. I have been a vendor at the NEC weekends because the event is about an hour drive from me. (It has now moved farther away and become more pricey, so I passed this year.)

Several years ago the event was the last week of March. While I normally arrive the night before to get set-up, many vendors will arrive either Friday and a few even Sat. morning. That year there was a freak snow storm with typical cold temps.

There was a discus outfit coming. They had a specially outfitted van so they could basically transport fish in a custom made tank like container and they had a way to heat it and keep the water warm enough and well aerated for discus. But the generator which powered the system failed in transit and they arrived with the fish in water way too cold.

I noticed that they were trying to acclimate the fish gradually to proper temps. So I politely explained to them about the research I had read that indicated the way to save the discus was to get them back into the proper temp. range ASAP. I was told, in no uncertain terms, that they were discus experts and knew what they were doing. So I wished them good luck and did not press the issue.

They lost close to 75% of the fish.

Story #2. I began breeding zebra plecos in early 2006. I sold them for a number of years. But I also had to buy 100 zebras in order to get 30 other fish I really wanted. I knew I could sell most of the zebras, so I was willing to do this deal. I had a buyer in TX (I am in NY) and I was sending him 20 zebras at over 2 inch. size. Because, by then FedEx was flying the USPS Express packages, I sent the fish Express mail for overnight delivery. I packed them for that time frame.

The box went to Chicago on its way, where it was at a FedEx facility. The box was headed to TX next. But at the facility they had an accident. A 55 gal drum of something fairly toxic fell of the forklift and broke open. They shut down the facility for a day cleaning it up, so my box was delayed. My mistake in not packing for this possibility meant that, by the time the fish were rescheduled to arrive, I knew he heat packs would have already quit. I keep these fish in the mid 80sF and sometimes run a dry rainy season to induce spawning. By the end of the dry season I have the water at 92F. Zebras do not like colder water.

So, I told the buyer when the box arrived it was essential that he plop and srop the fish ASAP into the proper temp. water and not to do any acclimation. When the fish arrived in 3 bags, he checked the temp and they were 59, 60 and 60F. This temp. is fatal for zebras. There were two DOAs. But he followed my direction and the other 18 revcovered. I sent his refund right away as he did not opt for replacements. About 2 days later he let me know one more fish had died. So I also sent another Paypal refund for that one, but he refused it. He said since the fish were there a couple of days he did not know it wasn't his fault the 3rd fish died.

The one thing I know for sure was, had he tried to acclimate the fish gradually to warmer temp, it is likely 100% of them would have died.

 

[GaryE]

Any time I deal with cold fish, they go right into warmer water. Right away.

I would not go more than 3c in the other direction, into cold, but I have never had to.

 

[Firestorm_1976]

Here are two stories which support what I posted.

I occasionally sell at weekend fish events. I have been a vendor at the NEC weekends because the event is about an hour drive from me. (It has now moved farther away and become more pricey, so I passed this year.)

Several years ago the event was the last week of March. While I normally arrive the night before to get set-up, many vendors will arrive either Friday and a few even Sat. morning. That year there was a freak snow storm with typical cold temps.

There was a discus outfit coming. They had a specially outfitted van so they could basically transport fish in a custom made tank like container and they had a way to heat it and keep the water warm enough and well aerated for discus. But the generator which powered the system failed in transit and they arrived with the fish in water way too cold.

I noticed that they were trying to acclimate the fish gradually to proper temps. So I politely explained to them about the research I had read that indicated the way to save the discus was to get them back into the proper temp. range ASAP. I was told, in no uncertain terms, that they were discus experts and knew what they were doing. So I wished them good luck and did not press the issue.

They lost close to 75% of the fish.

Story #2. I began breeding zebra plecos in early 2006. I sold them for a number of years. But I also had to buy 100 zebras in order to get 30 other fish I really wanted. I knew I could sell most of the zebras, so I was willing to do this deal. I had a buyer in TX (I am in NY) and I was sending him 20 zebras at over 2 inch. size. Because, by then FedEx was flying the USPS Express packages, I sent the fish Express mail for overnight delivery. I packed them for that time frame.

The box went to Chicago on its way, where it was at a FedEx facility. The box was headed to TX next. But at the facility they had an accident. A 55 gal drum of something fairly toxic fell of the forklift and broke open. They shut down the facility for a day cleaning it up, so my box was delayed. My mistake in not packing for this possibility meant that, by the time the fish were rescheduled to arrive, I knew he heat packs would have already quit. I keep these fish in the mid 80sF and sometimes run a dry rainy season to induce spawning. By the end of the dry season I have the water at 92F. Zebras do not like colder water.

So, I told the buyer when the box arrived it was essential that he plop and srop the fish ASAP into the proper temp. water and not to do any acclimation. When the fish arrived in 3 bags, he checked the temp and they were 59, 60 and 60F. This temp. is fatal for zebras. There were two DOAs. But he followed my direction and the other 18 revcovered. I sent his refund right away as he did not opt for replacements. About 2 days later he let me know one more fish had died. So I also sent another Paypal refund for that one, but he refused it. He said since the fish were there a couple of days he did not know it wasn't his fault the 3rd fish died.

The one thing I know for sure was, had he tried to acclimate the fish gradually to warmer temp, it is likely 100% of them would have died.

Thank you so so much!
If it's ok, I would like to share something. I've been "drooling" over these hifin ruby red swords (that do look FANTASTIC!) for a while, but they are in NY and I am in AZ, and the seller is very inflexible and wants $85 for overnight shipping for 6 juveniles (so, I guess, I will just have to keep "drooling" as there is no way I can afford $165 for six fry) https://angelsplus.com/products/copy-of-swordtail-fish-ruby-red

Here what he writes about acclimation process https://angelsplus.com/products/copy-of-swordtail-fish-ruby-red#acclimation

 

[GaryE]

It's really a debate. Drip acclimation has its supporters. There are meticulous systems people used to set up (some still do) to deal with shipping and new arrivals.

I'm relatively unscientific on this one, as I go on what I have seen work. I've unpacked tens of thousands of fish shipped from all over the planet, often after being days overdue, and often really badly packed at source. When you open the bags, sometimes it's like the ammonia will scorch your eyebrows off. The fish are poured through a net and put right into a prepared, cycled system to get them out of that ammonia as rapidly as possible.

They do just fine.

If you know you are buying hardwater fish, then you MUST have a hardwater tank awaiting them. It would be the same with a drip system.

Your seller seems very conscientious, and the info provided, even if I don't agree with all of it, is superb. And who am I anyway? You have to choose your methods, and you'll find experienced people arguing for all sorts of techniques.

$85 for shipping is a great price. In Canada, UPS wants $170 to ship a box 800km. If you don't live in a huge city and you like uncommon fish, shipping prices are brutal. You may be able to negotiate a different, slower method when it's warmer, but at this time of year, the max is necessary for the fish to have a chance of live arrival. It leaves me drooling at interesting fish I can't afford too.

Shipping is out of the seller's control. I used to have a side business selling wild type livebearers, and I shut it down when I realized shipping cost the customers more than they paid for the fish.

 

[Firestorm_1976]

It's really a debate. Drip acclimation has its supporters. There are meticulous systems people used to set up (some still do) to deal with shipping and new arrivals.

I'm relatively unscientific on this one, as I go on what I have seen work. I've unpacked tens of thousands of fish shipped from all over the planet, often after being days overdue, and often really badly packed at source. When you open the bags, sometimes it's like the ammonia will scorch your eyebrows off. The fish are poured through a net and put right into a prepared, cycled system to them out of that ammonia as rapidly as possible.

They do just fine.

If you know you are buying hardwater fish, then you MUST have a hardwater tank awaiting them. It would be the same with a drip system.

Your seller seems very conscientious, and the info provided, even if I don't agree with all of it, is superb. And who am I anyway? You have to choose your methods, and you'll find experienced people arguing for all sorts of techniques.

$85 for shipping is a great price. In Canada, UPS wants $170 to ship a box 800km. If you don't live in a huge city and you like uncommon fish, shipping prices are brutal. You may be able to negotiate a different, slower method when it's warmer, but at this time of year, the max is necessary for the fish to have a chance of live arrival. It leaves me drooling at interesting fish I can't afford too.

Shipping is out of the seller's control. I used to have a side business selling wild type livebearers, and I shut it down when I realized shipping cost the customers more than they paid for the fish.

Thank you so much, Gary! A truly valuable perspective!
I do like the fact that the seller actually demands to pick up the fish from UPS location. Even when I order plants to be shipped, I always ask to put "Hold for pick up" note on my package as without it my local USPS office refuses to hold them. The plants usually arrive on day 2 after shipment, and I diligently pick them up at 9:00am from the post office.
With my only experience of receiving live fish (the one mentioned in this post), I ordered from ebay, both sellers had good reviews (paid $15 and $25 for the shipping from two different sellers... and the fish arrived on January 4th, so doesn't get to be much more winter than that), communication with both sellers was difficult, and neither put "hold for pick up" on the package. However, I was still able to drive to post office and beg them (at 9am on day 2 post-shipment) to find my package (as the tracking showed that it arrived), and thankfully, they did. The package was cold, and one fish was not doing great (the second one was fine), but it survived and doing well now. The more expensive ($25) shipping was via UPS, sadly (sadly because I was unable to pick it up from their office), so it arrived in the afternoon of that same Jan 4th.

Because I didn't have the info I have now (thanks to this post), I temp acclimated both bags (WITHOUT opening them) for about 20 min by floating them and then, transfered the fish immediately upon opening the bag. I did feed the fish frozen bloodworms that same day, a couple hours after their arrivals.

Do you happen to know why this seller is so firm about not feeding the fish at all, and especially not frozen foods? Thanks again!

 

[GaryE]

I don't know about the feeding question. It could be he/she believes that chilling can affect digestive enzymes, but that is a pure guess. They could also use shipping tranquilizers, which I guess would have to wear off. I always feed new arrivals, but not frozen because I don't use it. I'm a live food and occasional flake fish feeding person.

I also buy from friends, so I know their ways of doing things. That is an advantage most of us don't have.

Floating the bags slows things, but that's all. Floating with the bag open is reputed to be dangerous, as the rush of air into the bag can cause quick chemical changes - ammonia.

I've never had to cool a fish bag - it has always gone the other way. I'm in a generally cold climate, but in summer, I would never order fish if temps were above 26. Cold's a killer, heat's a killer, and a nice in between is good.

 

[Firestorm_1976]

Thank you so much, Gary! The above mentioned seller said that he'd consider doing 2-day shipping in mid-May (since until then he said the temp is still too cold in NY), but would NOT guarantee the fish (which of course is a deal breaker for such expensive fish). But now, reading what you said, I think mid-May would be probably a deal breaker on my end as it can get pretty hot here in Arizona by mid May. Oh well, keep drooling I will

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Shipping fish can be a coin toss. While I am sure GaryE has shipped more fish that I have, I am pretty sure the price on my fish is greater. Some have gotten cheaper over the years but I am still charging anywhere from $100- $400 - $500 when I sell proven breeders.

I developed a pricing structure which most seller will never use. I price my fish shipped. However, if you come in person and pick them up, I discount the price by about 25%. The reason is simple. When I drop the fish at FedEX or UPS, what happens along the way is out of my control. How a box is handled, whether it gets delayed or left out in the cold such that it overpower the heat packs all are beyond my control.

When the shipper basically kills the fish due to how they transported them, I am still responsible to the buyer. I have to eat the loss. So, come and get them and I am relived of that liability. I have buyers who fly here to pick up a decent number of fish because the 25% savings is worth more than the shipping would be. I also discount for the volume of a species and then also for the total size of an order. I a, also probably the only of very few people in the world who will. put an extra zebra pleco into a shipment as long as it was for at least 12 fish.

Here is what I do know. I have never been on social media. I have only sold on forums like this one and at a few weekend events. I guess I must have a pretty good rep. as people have managed to locate me. I get a fair number of referrals.

If one sells healthy fish at a fair price. If you treat buyers fairly and you keep you word, you will always have customers looking for you. There are good sellers and there are bad ones but this is a part of life. Our job is to learn the difference. Also the same applies to the buyers. Maany are honest but a few will try to cheat a seller every chance they get.

 

[GaryE]

I was selling fish for at most $5 to $10 each. The shipping could range from $15 for a tiny box up the populated southern corridors, up to $70 for the same box to the north. It would run at $60 for 6 fish to the west coast or the prairies.

The Loracarid market is really different. I was selling livebearers not expecting a profit, just to Canadian hobbyists on a forum.