Angelfish Breeding Log 2nd Attempt

[itiwhetu]

The young fish will be fine to put in with the other Angels.
When I used to breed Angels commercially we had a holding tank with about 30 adult fish, we used to separate them out into smaller tanks for breeding then once they had spawned we would put them back into the holding tank. The population in the holding tank was always a mixture of older and younger fish. Angels communities always do best when you have a tank with just Angels. Most cichlids do best in single specie tanks. This is my Severum tank and story:

Severums having fun

This is mum dad and the kids. This was a 250 liter tank the Severums spawned multiple times and always managed to raise a few. When I sold the set up there were 30 Severums plus the two Jewel Cichlids you can see in the photo.

www.fishforums.net

 

[Uberhoust]

@itiwhetu It is good to know that I can put some juveniles in with adults. I have one juvenile, the only survivor, who is now twice the size of the embers she is in with, she will have to be moved soon. The 75 gallon was going to be primarily Angels but I was thinking of some dither fish like my black neons, or ornates I have in my 60 gallon. When you mention cichlids as a single species are you referring to only one species of cichlids, or that the only fish type is the cichlid, ie no tetras, corys etc. My recent experiences with my angels in particular have made me somewhat reluctant to move the adult angels around to different tanks, there is always some issue with one not getting along with another. If the angels were not so personable towards me and not as interesting to observe I would replace them with a fish that is easier to maintain.

 

[itiwhetu]

I prefer one species of Cichlid and nothing else. When I have kept African Cichlids I have the best results with just a single species and the same with American Cichlids. My experience tells me that the problems start when you have lots of different species all living closely to each other. Like I said the Angels in the holding tank all just hang around together, same with the Severums. I have had tanks with just kribensis together with no issues move a couple of pairs to a community tank and all hell broke loose in the community tank. I have always wondered if the fish in pairs don't feel as secure as when they are in larger groups.

 

[Uberhoust]

Some good points Itiwhetu, I will have to balance my objectives. I like my community tank in the family room, a single species tank doesn't seem as interesting, though my office tank could be setup as a single species tank. I was going to use the 60 gallon as my office tank and the 75 gallon as my community tank. Thanks for your opinions and experience.

 

[Uberhoust]

Fry still growing with parents though they use most of the tank now and do not cluster around the parents as much. The parents still seem devoted to the fry so I am continuing with the parents in the tank. This afternoon I thought I saw the slightest amount of green in the Ammonia test, not enough for 0.25 ppm but likely less than 0.125 ppm. Comparing against the reference of distilled water my wife said she couldn't see a difference but I am sure there is a slight indication. I cannot do a water change right now so I added a pad of API Nitrasorb to the filter and will do a water change this evening. I might be getting paranoid.

 

[Uberhoust]

It has been a while since I have updated my post. The fry are still doing well. I estimate 50 left, my wife says 75. Most are starting to have angel form and some are starting to take some flake food when I feed the adults. The are developing faster now and I have dropped their feeding to twice a day now. They still get freshly hatched nauplii but now they also get first bites. It has been a pleasure keeping them with the parents but the parents are now starting to act like they may breed again, I don't know what the implications would be if they started to breed with the fry in the tank. The parents are very different from each other so I expect we will get quite a mix, though it is clear Ben, the striped male, has the more dominate coloration genes, at least that is clear today.

Still having a hard time with cyanobacteria in this tank, it doesn't seem to be affecting the fry, all parameters for the tank are normal with NH3, NO2 at zero and NO3 at < 5. I highly suspect it is the aquarium soil that is the major culprit. I converted another tank recently from Aquarium Soil to sand, I will run it for a bit before I state that it is the soil. When I cleaned the other tank the sludge at the bottom from waste and broken soil was pretty bad, never had that kind of mess with gravel before. The other thing I noted with the cyanobacteria is that it seems to infest some of the recently cleaned wood like it is being opportunistic by rapidly colonizing the fresh surface before more beneficial bacteria can develop.

To end on a good note some images of the fry. The clarity is not that good because I have to take them at 6400 iso to get a fast enough shutter speed.

More behavior like this from the parents suggests they will be breeding again soon.

One of the better developed fry. Complete with the little stiff pectoral fins.

What I believe to be a different color morph from the batch.

Another young one with more developed color and banding.

 

[Colin_T]

Never move young fry or adults when they are living together because you can upset them.

You can separate the fry when the adults no longer show any care for them (about 2 months), or the adults lay another batch of eggs. The fry usually start to wander off by themselves after a month or so, sometimes longer. The longer you leave the babies with the adults, the better it is for the young fish because they get to learn basic fish language and behaviour from their parents. The young will also make better parents if they are well cared for by their own parents.

Keep feeding the babies 3-5 times a day until they are at least half the size of the adults, preferably full grown. They should always have fat stomachs and look like pregnant guppies.

 

[Uberhoust]

@Colin_T I have taken your advice and will continue to feed the fry at a more frequent interval. I keep three hatching containers for the Nauplii going, starting a new one approximately every 12 hours. I used to have left overs from every hatch that I froze for later use, but now the fry are eating much more of it so I don't get many leftovers. I might need to start larger batches. The fry eat about a half a teaspoon of nearly pure nauplii at each feeding. Additionally when I feed the adults I crush some flake for the little ones which is started to be eaten as well. The really don't seem to care for the first bites as much as ground tetra flakes or bug bites. I might try them on some frozen daphnia later this week.

I may be able to keep the fry with the adults for approximately another 3 weeks but by then the 37 gallon will have too high a bioload and I will have to move at least some to a 60 gallon tank I have setup for them. The new tank will not have aquarium soil, if my other tank is behaving normally I can expect a rise in the pH from 6.4 to 6.8 or 7.0, I hope the young ones can handle the change. I know the adult angels handled the change in my main tank ok but I expect the fry are more sensitive.

I am pretty stoked to have fry living, I have kept fish many years but this is the first time I have ever got a batch so far along.

 

[kribensis12]

Gorgeous! So excited for you!

With cichlids it is a balancing act - they are good parents, but unless they are known for a nuclear family (like neolamprologus brichardi), they typically eat their own fry when they are ready to breed again and/or they no longer see them as their own. In the wild, the young would eventually start to swim off on their own until the parents are left with none.

So while yes, as @Colin_T pointed out - it's good to keep them with the parents, I would keep a hawkeye on them to make sure that they don't one day become food.

 

[Uberhoust]

The Angel tank with the fry is in our family room/kitchen. My wife and I are not too hung up on having a traditional kitchen so it works well for us. As well I am currently working from home. The point of the explanation is that I can keep watch on the fry easily. The fry numbers do slowly drop but we still have lots and they still follow the parents. I have a spare 60 gallon which I am going to house the fry when that time comes, the filter is currently cycled so I could make the changeout quickly if I need to. I will watch for cleaning behavior, the male in particular always starts to clean a particular piece of driftwood before the spawning starts. I will re-assess the fry/parent removal at that time.

 

[Colin_T]

Buy some raw/ cooked prawn (shrimp) and put it in the freezer. Each day take one out and defrost it. Remove the head, shell and gut (thin black tube in body) and put these bits in the bin. Then use a pair of scissors to cut the prawn tail into small pieces and offer a few bits at a time. Feed the babies until they are full, then put a heap of baby brineshrimp in for them to top up on.

You can also add microworms, grindal worms or white worms to their diet. The more variety they get, the better they do.

 

[Uberhoust]

Might try the shrimp with my other fish as well. Don't know about raising other food at this time. Between the tank maintenance, my full time work, which I have to work late because of time here, and other home maintenance issues, I don't have a lot of time left. Occasionally I would like to take my kayak out and enjoy the natural environment too. I am now maintaining 6 tanks.

 

[kribensis12]

Might try the shrimp with my other fish as well. Don't know about raising other food at this time. Between the tank maintenance, my full time work, which I have to work late because of time here, and other home maintenance issues, I don't have a lot of time left. Occasionally I would like to take my kayak out and enjoy the natural environment too. I am now maintaining 6 tanks.

If it helps, microworms are SUPER easy. You can out their food once a month (booked oatmeal) and keep them in a container. It's that simple. No effort involved. BBS is way more time intensive.

 

[Uberhoust]

BBS is definitely time consuming but has been far more productive than my protozoan cultures. I will have to find someone local to get a starter culture of microworms, the online sources are not shipping in the heatwave we are having. With the BBS I have a sequence, turn off air, mix the next batch of water, gather the shrimp, clean shrimp, feed shrimp, clean hatchery, start next batch. 10 minutes per feeding. My wife might draw the line over a culture of nematodes.

 

[itiwhetu]

BBS is definitely time consuming but has been far more productive than my protozoan cultures. I will have to find someone local to get a starter culture of microworms, the online sources are not shipping in the heatwave we are having. With the BBS I have a sequence, turn off air, mix the next batch of water, gather the shrimp, clean shrimp, feed shrimp, clean hatchery, start next batch. 10 minutes per feeding. My wife might draw the line over a culture of nematodes.

I used to have micro worms in the hot water cupboard at home, it drove my mother insane. She tolerated most things but that almost was one step to far.