Ammonia. What is happening!?

[Pixburgh29]

Hi all. In all my years dealing with aquariums, I cannot for the life of me figure out what is happening here and I'm close to just starting over.

Timeline
1/6/23 Tank set up - Declorinated water, sand substrate, HOB filter (new, nothing established), Dr Tims bacteria, started ammonia dosing (2ppm).
1/27/23 Saw nitrites spike then nitrates spike etc etc over time. Did 50% water change.
1/28/23 Dosed ammonia to 1ppm, ammonia did not go to 0 over the next few days.
Watched and waited, nitrates rose but ammonia reading went no lower then .5ppm.
2/8/23 Did 25% water change, added another round of bacteria, and also stability (considered maybe i had a bad batch of bacteria from dr tims). Dosed ammonia to 1ppm.
2/15 Ammonia down to .5ppm again but not moving.
2/25 Added plants (there is some growth but not much, I expected more at this point?)

4/5
We are now months into this build and I have since been performing 20-25% water changes weekly. Ammonia is STILL reading above 0 but nitrates slowly crawl up so I'm getting ammonia from something just not sure what is causing it.

There is likely something very obvious going on and i'm just not seeing it so hoping for more sets of eyes on this before I tear it down.

Notes - I have yet to add fish because I cannot get a low enough ammonia reading to feel good about it. I also have plans to add wood that i've been curing since January but the tank seems unstable for that too. Please help

 

[Byron]

Members like @TwoTankAmin will be more expert in this, but two things I would mention. First, do they add chloramine to your source water? When you use a conditioner, it separates the chlorine/ammonia and the ammonia remains but should be taken up by the plants/bacteria, at least that is the thinking.

Second, now that plants are present, stop adding any chemicals/ammonia and see what occurs over the next few days.

By the way, Stability is only adding yet another chemical into the mix, it doe not contain the nitrifying bacteria species.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I would suggest if you used Dr. Tim's Bacteria that you should also have followed his instructions on how to cycle your tank using his product. https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/solutions/fishless-cycling/

I can easily see from what reported that you did not add sufficient ammonia to properly cycle a tank.
Stability is a bottle of spores which nitrifying bacteria do not form.
Water changes work to slow cycling and should be avoided unless there is a good reason for doing them.

 

[Pixburgh29]

Members like @TwoTankAmin will be more expert in this, but two things I would mention. First, do they add chloramine to your source water? When you use a conditioner, it separates the chlorine/ammonia and the ammonia remains but should be taken up by the plants/bacteria, at least that is the thinking.

Second, now that plants are present, stop adding any chemicals/ammonia and see what occurs over the next few days.

By the way, Stability is only adding yet another chemical into the mix, it doe not contain the nitrifying bacteria species.

I will definitely look into the chloramine, it had never been an issue before but they may have changed something!

Plants were added the end of February, I haven't added anything new since then - just water changes and testing.

 

[Pixburgh29]

I would suggest if you used Dr. Tim's Bacteria that you should also have followed his instructions on how to cycle your tank using his product. https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/solutions/fishless-cycling/

I can easily see from what reported that you did not add sufficient ammonia to properly cycle a tank.
Stability is a bottle of spores which nitrifying bacteria do not form.
Water changes work to slow cycling and should be avoided unless there is a good reason for doing them.

Hi, thanks for the tips. I did follow his instructions and dosed to 2ppm then followed the regime. I did a water change after initial nitrate spike to lower them. I have continued to do maintenance water changes only.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Both bacteria and plants need nutrition. Both prefer ammonia- plants as NH4 (ammonium) and bacteria as NH3 ammonia.

Once a tank is cycled it needs ammonia to remain so. If you did not add any fish then, there is liitle or no ammonia being created in the tanks.

Next, based on your report, you did not follow Dr. Tim's guide:

The Process:

• Day 1 – dose ammonia to 2 ppm ammonia-nitrogen [NH3-N] using our ammonium chloride (1 drop per gallon [After Nov 2016 when using DrTim’s ammonium chloride use 4 drops per gallon]) [NOTE: do not expect your test kit to exactly read 2 ppm and it is not critical to get exactly 2 ppm. The key is to not add too much ammonia]. If using DrTim’s Aquatics One & Only Live Nitrifying bacteria add it now (turn skimmer, UV and ozone off and remove filter socks for 48 hours).
• Day 2 – Measure ammonia and nitrite.
• Day 3 – If ammonia and nitrite are below 1 ppm add more ammonia: four drops of our ammonium chloride per gallon (check the label).
• Days 4 & 5 – Measure ammonia and nitrite.
• Day 6 – If ammonia and nitrite are below 1 ppm add 2 ppm ammonia. Four drops of our ammonium chloride per gallon. [NOTE: since you have added the One & Only your ammonia kit will not read 2 ppm and DO NOT continue adding ammonia trying to get to 2 ppm – just add 2 ppm ammonia (4 drops per gallon of our ammonium chloride) and carry-on.
• Days 7 & 8 – Measure ammonia and nitrite. On the first measurement day (Day 2, 4, 5, 7 or 8) that BOTH ammonia and nitrite are both below 0.5 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N) your tank is close to being cycled.
• Now start to measure ammonia and nitrite every day.
• When BOTH ammonia and nitrite are below 0.2 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N), add another 2 ppm ammonia.
• Continue to measure every day. When you can add 2 ppm ammonia and BOTH ammonia and nitrite are below 0.2 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N) the next day your tank is cycled – congrats! You’re done!
• Do a partial water change and add some fish.

So, at the very least you should have added ammonia in the first 10 days at least 4 times and maybe 5 if it takes more than about 10 -12 days.

I wrote the cycling articles for this site and the one on fishless cycling is based loosely on DR. Tim's. His can require one has to do diluted testing for nitrite. The method here cannot produce too much nitrite due to how I modified it. However, if one follows either method to the letter, the time to complete a cycle are similar and the total ammonia added when cycled is close to the same as well.

You should note that Dr. Tim uses the nitrogen scale for measuring ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. This is the scale preferred by the scientific community. The cycling articles here use the Total Ion scale which is the one most commonly employed by hobby test kits, The two scales can easily be converted to each other by fixed formulas.

Finally, once add live plants to the equation, it changes how one should approach the issue of cycling. Plants will actually do a lot of the work for this depending on the type and volume of plants one has. With enough plants ina tank, one can stock over time as soon as they are established. A couple of small additions of ammonia (1 ppm for ex.) will feed both the plants and the bacteria which they host during the settling in period for the plants. Then you can add fish. Given enough plants and bacteria at the end of the settling it, it can even be possible to stock a tank fully.

However, for most the more gradual stocking is what will be the suggested approach.

 

[Pixburgh29]

Both bacteria and plants need nutrition. Both prefer ammonia- plants as NH4 (ammonium) and bacteria as NH3 ammonia.

Once a tank is cycled it needs ammonia to remain so. If you did not add any fish then, there is liitle or no ammonia being created in the tanks.

Next, based on your report, you did not follow Dr. Tim's guide:

The Process:

• Day 1 – dose ammonia to 2 ppm ammonia-nitrogen [NH3-N] using our ammonium chloride (1 drop per gallon [After Nov 2016 when using DrTim’s ammonium chloride use 4 drops per gallon]) [NOTE: do not expect your test kit to exactly read 2 ppm and it is not critical to get exactly 2 ppm. The key is to not add too much ammonia]. If using DrTim’s Aquatics One & Only Live Nitrifying bacteria add it now (turn skimmer, UV and ozone off and remove filter socks for 48 hours). - DONE 1/6
• Day 2 – Measure ammonia and nitrite. - DONE 1/7
• Day 3 – If ammonia and nitrite are below 1 ppm add more ammonia: four drops of our ammonium chloride per gallon (check the label). - 1/8 Did not add, ammonia was above 1ppm.
• Days 4 & 5 – Measure ammonia and nitrite. - DONE 1/9 & 1/10
• Day 6 – If ammonia and nitrite are below 1 ppm add 2 ppm ammonia. Four drops of our ammonium chloride per gallon. [NOTE: since you have added the One & Only your ammonia kit will not read 2 ppm and DO NOT continue adding ammonia trying to get to 2 ppm – just add 2 ppm ammonia (4 drops per gallon of our ammonium chloride) and carry-on. - DONE 1/11 2PPM
• Days 7 & 8 – Measure ammonia and nitrite. On the first measurement day (Day 2, 4, 5, 7 or 8) that BOTH ammonia and nitrite are both below 0.5 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N) your tank is close to being cycled.
• Now start to measure ammonia and nitrite every day. - DONE 1/12-1/26
• When BOTH ammonia and nitrite are below 0.2 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N), add another 2 ppm ammonia. - DONE 1/27-1/28
• Continue to measure every day. When you can add 2 ppm ammonia and BOTH ammonia and nitrite are below 0.2 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N) the next day your tank is cycled – congrats! You’re done! - 1/28 and on never went below .5
• Do a partial water change and add some fish.

So, at the very least you should have added ammonia in the first 10 days at least 4 times and maybe 5 if it takes more than about 10 -12 days.

I wrote the cycling articles for this site and the one on fishless cycling is based loosely on DR. Tim's. His can require one has to do diluted testing for nitrite. The method here cannot produce too much nitrite due to how I modified it. However, if one follows either method to the letter, the time to complete a cycle are similar and the total ammonia added when cycled is close to the same as well.

You should note that Dr. Tim uses the nitrogen scale for measuring ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. This is the scale preferred by the scientific community. The cycling articles here use the Total Ion scale which is the one most commonly employed by hobby test kits, The two scales can easily be converted to each other by fixed formulas.

Finally, once add live plants to the equation, it changes how one should approach the issue of cycling. Plants will actually do a lot of the work for this depending on the type and volume of plants one has. With enough plants ina tank, one can stock over time as soon as they are established. A couple of small additions of ammonia (1 ppm for ex.) will feed both the plants and the bacteria which they host during the settling in period for the plants. Then you can add fish. Given enough plants and bacteria at the end of the settling it, it can even be possible to stock a tank fully.

However, for most the more gradual stocking is what will be the suggested approach.

Sorry, I think we are miscommunicating. I did not detail each step of Dr Tims that I took at the beginning (I just paraphrased by saying i started the process). This was completed between the dates that I marked 1/6-1/28, I added comments above in purple.

As for plants, they are still getting ammonia just not sure from where as its still reading and has been this entire time since January. I just don't know where to go from here.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

OK- now I understand. Your tank was actually cycled on the 27th,

After that the .5 reading for ammonia was likely a false reading. If you add ammonia and then you see see nitrates rise, this is caused by the ammonia being used. If you can give me the high nitrate reading you got and the brand of test kits you are using, I can show you the math in reverse. We can actually determine how much ammonia was needed to produce that amount of nitrate.

Everything soon after the 27th was the result of a false reading, imo. And al the things you tried, especially adding the plants made it increasingly difficult to do a cycle as far as you could see.

Here is what I now suggest you do which will indicate exactly where the tank stands. But first a quit explanation. Dr. T. uses the nitrogen scale. So when he tells us to dose the ammonia to 2 ppm that is rhe scale involved. Most hobby kits use the Total Ion (TI) scale and I will assume yours does so. We can can confirm this if you post brand.

2 ppm to Dr. T would produce a reading on the TI scale of about 2.6 ppm. And for him 1 ppm of ammonia = 1 ppm of Nitrite = 1 ppm nitrate. But using the TI scale it would be roughly--> 1.30 ppm of ammonia = 3.30 ppm of nitrite = 4.43 ppm nitrate.

What this means is if you divide you nirate reading by 4.43 and then multiply the result it by 1.3, this is the minimum amount of ammonia that must have been converted to produce that amount of nitrate. Working things the other way, we know that if you dosed the 4 drops/gal. of the ammonium chloride, it should have produced the 2.6 ppm on the TI scale and the most nitrate that could result in would be 8.86 ppm. But, if some of the ammonia evaporate before the bacteria used it. Next, nitrite is not stable at all in water so some becomes nitrous acid and not all of will be turned to nitrate. The one thing we do know is that you cannot get more than 8.86 ppm of nitrate from those 4 drops of ammonium chloride.

At any rate, the above is further complicated by the live plants. They will use ammonium and they will use nitrate. So when you add those 4 drop to the tank now, I have no clue what to expect your readings will be. What I do know is there no way to maintain exactly .5 ppm of ammonia in tank all the time if you tried to do so. You would need many $1,000s of lab grade equipment to pull it off. I suggest you do the following:

1. Do as big a water change as you can. Do not add any moree bacteria, especially not the Stability.

2. About 5 minutes after you refill the tank with dechlored water, test for ammonia. nitrite and nitrate and record the numbers. They should be close to 0 across the board. Alwats test withing 5 minutes of adding dechlor to the tank water to prevent inaccurate readings.

3. Add the ammonium chloride at the rate of only 2 drops/gal. This should make 1.3 ppm of ammonia max. on hobby kits.

4. Wait 12 hours and test for ammonia. Record the number. If it is anywhere under 1.3 ppm to as low as 0, record it. And then,

5. Test for nitrite and record that number. If you get 0 for both numbers, you can stock half way to full stocking, or wait and see below

6. If you got a reading for either ammonia or nitrite after the 12 hours, test again in 12 hours. If you get 0 for both you can stock 1/3 or wait and see below.

7. With 0/0 you can dose ammonia again, but this time add the full 4 drops/gal. If it is not 0/0 after the first 2, then wait until it is and repeat the above 2 drop routine again (including the water change) until you do get 0/0 in 24 or less.

8. If you were able to increase to the 4 drop level, test ammonia and nitrite in 12 and record the numbers. If they are 0/0, you can do a big water change and stock fully. If either number is not 0, test whichever were not 0 again in 12 hours. If you get 0/0, do a big water change and stock fully. If you do not get 0/0, then

9. Wait until both numbers are 0/0, do a big water change to get the numbers as close to 0/0 you can, refill the tank and add 4 drops/gal. and repeat as above. You should be getting 0/0 this time in either 12 or 24 hours.

What to do if ammonia stays stuck at .5 ppm at both the 12 and 24 hour tests above? Consider it as a false reading caused by something else in the water. For example, iron is known to cause false ammonia readings. In a lab there are methods used to compensate for this. In our tanks we get false readings. Assume that .5 ppm is 0.

Do not exceed 4 drops/gal as some plants will not do well in elevated ammonia beyond a certain point. This is not the same for all plants.

Rememeber to d a big water change before you stock. If you cannot stock right away, the add 2 drops/gal. of ammonium every ther day until you can. Do a 50% water change weekly as long as you are adding ammonia and withing to add your fish. If you do not stock closeto ully at the outset, of much time basses before tou add more fish, consider it somewhat like an old style fish in cycle and to doadd too many more fish at once. Usuallly bewteen 1/4 and 1/3 of the current fish mass already in the tank is safe to add.