Ammonia poisoning, low oxygen, or something else?

[Cherrys]

I know the quickest way is to test the water, but I unfortunately do not have any tests. Mine are expired and our Walmart no longer carries any liquid tests. I ordered the API kit, but it will not be here until Friday. Hoping some of the other things going on might be abe to tell someone if it's more likely one thing than the other and what the best course of action would be until Friday.

The tank is a 55gal and has been cycled and running for almost 9yrs. It was housing 10 cherry barbs, and 1RTS. We lost the RTS late last night/early this morning after it had been swimming around normally when we went to bed. The tank also has a handful of live plants, gravel substrate, and 2 filters.

On Sunday I did a 50% water change, gravel vac (50% maybe a little less), and rinsed out one of the filters in old tank water. The fish were at the top of the tank for an hour or so, but resumed normal activity. Water was clear and everything appeared normal. On Monday morning I noticed I forgot to turn one of the filters back on. On Monday night I cleaned the other half of the gravel, changed 20-30% of the water, and rinsed the 2nd filter. The water was a bit cloudy, but I assumed that was from the leftover sand getting kicked up. Now I'm thinking I tried to clean too much all at once.

Today most of the fish are swimming okay, but they still are going up to the top of the tank occasionally (the 3 oldest ones are staying near the hob filter and not swimming much if at all). I notice if I keep moving the other filter (topfin multistage internal 40, with poor suction cups) above the waterline so it makes more movement, the fish swim around longer and act normal which made me think possibly low oxygen, but I would think that should be fixed almost 2 days later.

This morning after finding the RTS I took out 5 gallons of water and replaced with fresh, but I didn't want to do too much in fear of creating more problems (he could not have been dead more than 8hrs and I'm not sure how fast dead fish start leaching ammonia). Can I do another water change and how much would be okay? I'm assuming a water change would be okay for ammonia or oxygen problems?

The tank currently looks less cloudy and you can only notice it if you look through the side glass. Looking directly at the tank the water looks normal. I have the lights off, because I thought that would make the fish less stressed. The yellow arrow, shows about how far we could see this morning, so it seems to be clearing up and you can almost see through the whole tank again. I just do not know what would have caused the cloudiness to happen, and if a bigger water change today would help or make it worse. This morning when I just did the 5 gallons it seemed worse after than it did before.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

Wow, nine years is a long run for a setup! It sounds like low oxygen to me. I recommend putting in an airstone or three and see if that helps, or otherwise increasing surface agitation. What's your temperature? If you're having a heater malfunction and your water's too hot, that can lead to problems too, including oxygen deprivation.

Once you get your test kit, test for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate and we'll go from there.

 

[Cherrys]

Wow, nine years is a long run for a setup! It sounds like low oxygen to me. I recommend putting in an airstone or three and see if that helps, or otherwise increasing surface agitation. What's your temperature? If you're having a heater malfunction and your water's too hot, that can lead to problems too, including oxygen deprivation.

Once you get your test kit, test for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate and we'll go from there.

74/75, which is where it was before the water changes. The heater does have some kind of white substance at the bottom, unsure if it's some kind of algae or something else. Probably worth replacing when I go to pick up some air stones. I typically have the internal filter underwater, but I'll try and get new suction cups for it as well to help with surface agitation for the time being. It slipped under the water level overnight and probably slowed down the process.

Do you know how long it typically takes to properly reoxygenate the water? One of the three fish seem a bit better and is back with the others in the middle of the tank, but I'm starting to doubt the other two will make it. They are the oldest two, maybe they are more susceptable to low oxygen, like the RTS.

Would you say that it is unlikely a cycling issue if most of the fish are acting normally? I'll still run checks when the tests arrive, but wondering if it would be more helpful or harmful to do another water change either tonight or tomorrow sometime?

 

[Byron]

Provided the parameters, being the GH, pH and temperature, are basically the same, you cannot do too many water changes. Something in the water is causing this, so fresh water should help. Make sure you use a conditioner though.

 

[Cherrys]

Provided the parameters, being the GH, pH and temperature, are basically the same, you cannot do too many water changes. Something in the water is causing this, so fresh water should help. Make sure you use a conditioner though.

I do always use Prime, but I didn't even consider pH. I did the larger change first though, which I assume would have been the most drastic and they resumed normal behavior the same day. Maybe a delayed reaction?

I did not let the water rest as long as I usually do, and the pH could have been quite a bit different now that I think about it. I was unable to clean the tank properly for some time due to health issues. I was topping off occasionally and doing much smaller changes, and less frequently than I typically would. Not sure how long pH takes to drop in a tank under those circumstances, but a possibility.

Our tap is very hard and reads on the high pH scale, but I'm assuming the tank could have been lower than it typically is. What kind of other issues do you think could stem from this?

I'll have to wait to test the real numbers to be sure, but I think pH could potentially be a problem too. Currently all but one fish are back swimming around normally and they did eat (first time attempting to feed since Sunday). Hopefully this means things are going in the right direction.

 

[Byron]

Now we are getting into other areas, and we need numbers. The GH and pH of the source/tap water on its own; you need to out-gas the CO2 for the pH with tap water. Or you may be able to find these numbers on the water authority's website.

Second, what is the pH of the tank water normally? If maintenance has been minimal, it is possible "old tank syndrome" is involved. The pH can lower in the tank, and ammonia increase but in the less toxic form, but when basic pH water is added the ammonium becomes ammonia.

 

[Colin_T]

The white stuff in the bottom of the heater is common and nothing to worry about, so don't buy a new heater unless you really want to.

Contact your water company and find out if they add chlorine or chloramine to the water supply. Make sure you dechlorinate the new water before adding it to the aquarium.

If the water company did work on the pipes just before you did a water change, you could have poisoned the fish with chlorine or chloramine even if you dechlorinate it. When they do work on the water pipes, they normally add a huge dose of chlorine or chloramine to make sure nothing is alive in the water. If you do a water change, the extra chlorine or chloramine poisons the fish because you only dose for a normal amount.

Increase aeration and add a full dose of dechlorinater (enough to treat the entire tank). See if it helps.

If the fish have been poisoned by chlorine or chloramine, they might never recover completely but should get slightly better if it wasn't a major dose of chlorine or chloramine.

 

[Cherrys]

All 10 are back to normal as of the last 5hrs or so, and the haziness has finally completely cleared out. I will continue to monitor over the next few days while I wait for my test kit.

My water is very hard. Generally the pH is around 7.6-7.8. GH 20ish and KH 13/14. I'll be sure to test the tap and tank to get the current true numbers for both.

 

[Essjay]

Take 2 readings for pH - one on freshly run tap water and the second on a glass of water that's been allowed to stand overnight. Standing allows CO2 to gas out as mentioned by Byron and the pH can change on standing depending how much CO2 was dissolved in freshly run tap water.

 

[Cherrys]

Take 2 readings for pH - one on freshly run tap water and the second on a glass of water that's been allowed to stand overnight. Standing allows CO2 to gas out as mentioned by Byron and the pH can change on standing depending how much CO2 was dissolved in freshly run tap water.

Am I expecting the water that was left out to be the same as the tank? Curious what exactly I'm looking for between the three readings.

Thankfully whatever happened, appears to be short lived. They are all still acting normal and 2 pairs are exhibiting mating behavior.

 

[Essjay]

The tank water should be the same as the tap water left to stand, though there are reasons why it may not be the same.
If small infrequent water changes are done, the acidic things which build up in such a scenario will cause the tank pH to drop.
If decor such as limestone rocks or pieces if coral are in the tank, they will cause the pH to rise.
If the KH in tap water is low and and a lot of Indian almond leaves are in the tank, the pH can drop.

If large weekly water changes are done and there are no pH altering things in the tank, the pH should be similar to tap water that has stood. But another point to consider - live plants change the pH slightly throughout the day. When the light is on, plants take up CO2 so the pH rises slightly. At night they don't take up CO2 so the pH drops slightly. In a tank with a lot of live plants, pH will be lower just before the light turns on and higher just before it turns off. For this reason, when there are live plants it is advisable to always test pH at the same time of day.



In cases where the pH of tap water is very different after allowing it to stand, it may be sensible to allow new water at a water change to stand for a several hours before adding it to the tank. Where it is only slightly different there is no problem adding it straight away.

 

[Cherrys]

The tank water should be the same as the tap water left to stand, though there are reasons why it may not be the same.
If small infrequent water changes are done, the acidic things which build up in such a scenario will cause the tank pH to drop.
If decor such as limestone rocks or pieces if coral are in the tank, they will cause the pH to rise.
If the KH in tap water is low and and a lot of Indian almond leaves are in the tank, the pH can drop.

If large weekly water changes are done and there are no pH altering things in the tank, the pH should be similar to tap water that has stood. But another point to consider - live plants change the pH slightly throughout the day. When the light is on, plants take up CO2 so the pH rises slightly. At night they don't take up CO2 so the pH drops slightly. In a tank with a lot of live plants, pH will be lower just before the light turns on and higher just before it turns off. For this reason, when there are live plants it is advisable to always test pH at the same time of day.



In cases where the pH of tap water is very different after allowing it to stand, it may be sensible to allow new water at a water change to stand for a several hours before adding it to the tank. Where it is only slightly different there is no problem adding it straight away.

Now I'm confused. Based on your second paragraph and what Byron has said, my pH should be lower, but I just ran some tests and it's showing higher. Much higher.

As far as I am aware I do not have any pH changing things in the tank. A piece of driftwood, maybe 4-5inches (lower if anything correct?), 3 Anubias plants, 5 Java ferns and a few of their plantlets free floating, because I can't get them to stay put yet. The lights have been on about 3hrs when I tested everything.

I believe the tank is closer to 8.2, tap is 7.8 (what it has been in the past, usually the tank is closer to that as well). I did not do pH, just high range. The water we had sitting out was closer to 8.0 than 7.8.

There is some ammonia in the tank, the nitrites are crazy high, and the nitrate actually looks okay to me (I shook the bottle like crazy and hit it a few times so should be accurate). Did we kill more of the nitrite eating bacteria that it is so much higher than the ammonia? Did I miss the ammonia spike waiting for the tests to arrive, and my cycle is almost back to normal? I hate reading the colors, but I know they do not look good. I attached a picture so you can see the accurate results without me guessing.

I want to do a water change, but given the pH I don't know what the best way to go about it is. Run water now and let it sit for a few hours, or do a couple smaller ones to get the ammonia/nitrites lower quicker? I'd like to rerun the tests after a change to compare and see what is going on, how long do I have to wait after changing the water to run the tests again for accuracy?

I am assuming the tests are accurate, but I don't understand why the fish are not acting like the water quality is terrible. They are swimming normally, no gasping for 2 days now, have eaten, and are exhibiting mating behavior still this morning/afternoon. I'm not seeing other signs of poisoning either; no red gills or eye abnormalities, not sitting at the bottom or hanging by the filters. Shouldn't they be dead or near death if these nitrite levels are accurate?

It's cold here, 48°-52° while the package was with FedEx for 2 days. I didn't consider the temps, could that be affecting the chemicals? I tested right when the package arrived and one of the test tubes did feel a bit cold and I brought it to room temp before filling it with aquarium water, but didn't think much else of it at the time.

 

[Cherrys]

Tested the tap for ammonia and nitrites both came back zero. Our water has trace amounts of nitrates so I didn't test that.

 

[Cherrys]

I did a water change of 15 gallons, as I did not let the water sit and was afraid too much new water might cause pH shock.

It has been an hour since the water change and it has not turned cloudy. The fish have not gone gasping to the surface either. 15 minutes after the change I tested the water. Ammonia looks closer to .25 now, but the nitrites are still very purple. I do not understand how the fish can be acting perfectly normal with nitrite readings this high. I tried to upload a video, but it is in the wrong format.

 

[Essjay]

To post a video, you need to upload it to YouTube or other video hosting site and post the link here.


If nitrite really is as high as the tester shows, the fish should be dead. Can I check - the test bottle is till in date? How do you wash the tubes after doing the tests? Residue left in the tubes can cause false readings.