Algae Problem

[waterdrop]

hi erk628

that is interesting that you don't get algae in the tanks with lots of water movement, or that are heavily filtered. Normally water movement doesn't make a lot of difference to algal growth and it is more dependant on light and nutrients.
Green water will be removed by good filtration but there are plenty of other alga that grow in tanks. You might have stumbled onto something interesting as far as algae control goes

High turn over rates with attempts to get water movement and nutrient delivery to all four corners of the tank is how successful planted tanks are run. The results of a failure to deliver nutrients to all four corners is well known to most people by now. Low nutrients = poor growth = leached ammonia from plants = algae. Nothing new there to most people who know how to run planted tanks.

Good filtartion should be an obvious benefit in the fight against algae. It is an obvoius benefit in most situations in this hobby. Good O2 and no algae is a also a situation that has been speculated, but with no hard evidence. Large, frequent water changes also help, particularly in the early days of a tank.

Plants outcompeting algae for nutrients is a bit of a non starter for me, as once all my plants have taken their necessary nutrients out of the tank, there is still an excess which alga could capitalise on, but doesn`t.

A 13 hour photoperiod is definitely too long and should be reduced to 8 - 10 hours.

I am not trying to jump on any kind of high horse, but from my experiences and observations, most of what has been wriiten on this thread is incorrect. There is even an indirect mention of allelopathy, which is taking the battle against algae back a few years. I have read Diana Walstad`s Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, but that doesn`t mean it exists in our aquariums. There is no proven build up hormones in our tanks that inhibits algae growth. It has been tried between tanks with exactly the same plants, but with a chemical build up permitted in one tank, but still no difference in algae blooming was noticed. In a poorly run tank, all our plants fall foul of algae.

Donna, you can control algae in your tank via light and keeping your plants happy. However, a picture is vital before any specific advice can be given.

Dave.

(Donna, sorry to clutter up your thread!!)
Dave, I have found myself thinking quite a lot about your posts about your experiences with algae control. One thing I keep having a hard time picturing is what this 10x turnover and highly distributed water movement would look like if I could see it "live." I feel like I'm missing something about the mechanics of how you go about doing this. Do you have some extra pipes on the output of your cannister filter(s) to distribute the large flow? Do you use extra powerheads in some way? How to you keep from having delicate plants waving all around and smaller fish being scooted across the viewing area, lol? Maybe the beginner context I'm coming from is getting in my way: I have my spraybar running across the back top surface of my tank. It shoots water out the dozen or so holes across the surface, causing ripples and then hits the front of my bowfront tank. The current then flows strongly down the front glass and unfortunately I believe the bowfront channels it more strongly towards the center. When fish like zebra danios swim into this, their tails shoot downwards and they appear to be swimming "up!" I don't like this effect (haven't decided on a change yet, because the spraybar is too long to go across the side glass)... Anyway, I keep picturing your tank having even -more- flows like this! Is this the case?

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

I agree with WD that I cannot imagine a 10 x flow rate that is not blowing the fish all over the tank. In my own experience, once you have good circulation throughout the tank, more flow just disturbs plants and fish. My highest flowing tank has valisneria in it for plants and ameca splendens for fish. The vals all are pushed away from the flow but are a plant that can handle it. The amecas are very strong swimmers and will hold their place in the current in order to eat. This tank still runs at only about 6 x flow rates but has been set up to intentionally circulate from end to end. Most of my other tanks would have all the fish avoiding the flow or huddled in a corner with that kind of flow and the java ferns and crypts would be destroyed by the flow that the vals work with.

 

[Miss_Donna]

Lol im not sure whether this is anything but i have a large air stone that i leave on all the time which makes a rippling effect on the surface my fish love swimming through it but this is probably nothing to do with what your talking about lol

 

[aaronnorth]

In my 60l, i have a fluval 205 external (11x turnover). Water movement isnt actually as strong as you would think it to be, George Farmer has recently bought a filter that will give him 25x turnover!

here is a video by Andy (supercoley1) http/s123.photobucket.com/albums/o315/Su...nt=CIMG2369.flv

he has 8.8x turnover but it gives you a basic idea.

Waterdrop, to get extra flow, you simply add more filters/ bigger filter and or use a powerhead.

the algae looks like brown algae to me, which is common in new setups, for the first few months, keep removing it and eventually it will go. Take a look in my sig at the algae guide for more info.

 

[Colin_T]

High turn over rates with attempts to get water movement and nutrient delivery to all four corners of the tank is how successful planted tanks are run. The results of a failure to deliver nutrients to all four corners is well known to most people by now. Low nutrients = poor growth = leached ammonia from plants = algae. Nothing new there to most people who know how to run planted tanks.

That is why I can grow plants in a stagnant pond, and the plants do well and there is very little algae?
Dave I’m not sure why you mention plants leaching ammonia into the water. They don't leach ammonia, they use it to grow. Ammonia is a form of nitrogen. The only time plants create ammonia is when they have died and are rotting.
And yes we all know Dave knows how to keep aquarium plants and I don’t.

Large, frequent water changes also help, particularly in the early days of a tank.

Dave, many of the plant specialist say water changes don't do anything to control algae, or they even encourage it. Now you are saying do water changes. Can you expand on why some people say don’t do them and others say do them?

Plants outcompeting algae for nutrients is a bit of a non starter for me, as once all my plants have taken their necessary nutrients out of the tank, there is still an excess which alga could capitalise on, but doesn`t.

Perhaps your plants use the light up too and release hormones that prevent the algae from growing even when you have excess nutrients in the water. Alternatively the plants are using the nutrients while there is light, and when it is dark they stop. The algae then has access to the nutrients but can't use them because of insufficient light.

I am not trying to jump on any kind of high horse, but from my experiences and observations, most of what has been wriiten on this thread is incorrect. There is even an indirect mention of allelopathy, which is taking the battle against algae back a few years. I have read Diana Walstad`s Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, but that doesn`t mean it exists in our aquariums.

Saying most of what has been written in this thread is incorrect is not very nice. Likewise, Diana Walstad is not the bees knees of plants or fish keeping. She thinks there is enough iron in the soil to sustain all plants indefinitely. What she fails to mention is she lives on a clay pit and not everyone else does. She also believes a U/V steriliser will treat fish tuberculosis and that is not true. It might help control it but it won’t cure it as she states.
A lot of her opinions are simply that, Her opinions. Just like your opinions are yours and mine and mine. Don't go around badmouthing other peoples' opinions because they don't agree with you and your way of doing things. The forum is for everyone to give their opinion and for the original poster to go through and try different things. Then they can use whatever works for them.

 

[Dave Spencer]

That is why I can grow plants in a stagnant pond, and the plants do well and there is very little algae?

If you think plant health in a stagnant pond is good enough for a planted tank, then your standards are way lower than mine. The point you made was that water movement makes little difference to algal growth, yet I and many others know this to be incorrect from experience. I prefer mine to look like this:

This:

This:

This:

And this:

Dave I’m not sure why you mention plants leaching ammonia into the water. They don't leach ammonia, they use it to grow. Ammonia is a form of nitrogen. The only time plants create ammonia is when they have died and are rotting.
And yes we all know Dave knows how to keep aquarium plants and I don’t.

Colin, I am not going to bother with this statement, as I wrote a lengthy answer that was lost when my internet connection was lost, but what you are saying is not a matter of opinion, it is patently wrong. Stressed plants do leach ammonia. Do some reading. The Barr Report is a good start and finish.

Dave, many of the plant specialist say water changes don't do anything to control algae, or they even encourage it. Now you are saying do water changes. Can you expand on why some people say don’t do them and others say do them?

Water changes at the beginning help keep alga spores down, and are a tried and trusted method that I personally think work well. The "plant specialists" that swear by them are Tom Barr, Takashi Amano, Jeff and Mike Senske, Oliver Knott, Claus Christensen. There are many talented aquascapers that use water changes in this way too, but the list could become tedious, so I have stuck to the biggest names.

Perhaps your plants use the light up too and release hormones that prevent the algae from growing even when you have excess nutrients in the water. Alternatively the plants are using the nutrients while there is light, and when it is dark they stop. The algae then has access to the nutrients but can't use them because of insufficient light.

There are excess nutrients 24/7. Alga are far more opportunist than plants and will start assimilating nutrients much more quickly than plants. I have 99.9% algae free tanks and excess nutrients. The link between algae and nutrients is tired and boring. You often say add root tabs to keep nutrients out of the water column, but root tabs leach nutrients in to the water column. Most planted tanks have water column fertilisation. Read the pinned EI topic in the planted section, Colin.

I often read about how you say can tell if a plant is aquatic by whether it can support its weight out of water. have you heard of Crypts?

Colin, I don`t want this to be personal, but I don`t think the majority of your algae and planted tank advice is good, because I genuinely don`t believe you understand how a planted tank works. You are more than entitled to your opinion, that is not for me to say.

At the end of the day I am just a hobbyist, not a scientist enjoying the hobby like some of the names I mentioned, but I observe my tanks and try to understand what is going on. I don`t feel you are doing this. My tanks are my credentials and testimony that high nutrient levels do not cause algae.

Hi, WD. I have two Tetratec 1200s on the tank in the first and second pic, which is a 200ish litre. Things don`t get blown around like you would imagine. Unfortunately, for me, aesthetics are very important, so I use glass lily pipes which I ultimately feel are not as good at distributing the water as well as a spray bar. Nevertheless, I struggle on.

Donna, sorry for the high jack....but what Aaron said. Or you could try Otos, which clear brown diatoms pretty quickly.

Dave.

 

[Colin_T]

You often say add root tabs to keep nutrients out of the water column, but root tabs leach nutrients in to the water column. Most planted tanks have water column fertilisation.

Nice pics Dave, a couple even seem to have been printed in plant books.

If you have 3-4inches of gravel, which is a nice depth for the plant’s roots to grow into, you can stick a fertiliser tab into the gravel and it will not leach nutrients into the water. Water will only move through the top inch of gravel (depending on size of gravel), therefore if the root tabs are covered by more than an inch of gravel, they should not leach any nutrients into the water column.
I notice the first pic you posted has very shallow gravel at the front of the tank and becomes deeper at the back. If you stick root tabs in the shallow stuff at the front then yes they will leach nutrients into the water. However, if you stick them in the deeper gravel at the back they won’t.
And if most planted tanks have column fertilisation, then some leaching of the root tabs shouldn’t make any difference as it will simply be adding to the nutrients already in the water.

I often read about how you say can tell if a plant is aquatic by whether it can support its weight out of water. have you heard of Crypts?

Cryptocorynes, & Echinodorus (swordplants) are both marsh plants that can grow under water. When these plants have been growing underwater for some time, they will have lost their emersed leaves and grown submersed leaves that will not continue standing up when the plant is removed from the water.

 

[Miss_Donna]

Hi all i think my pl*co is making small work of it this morning when i got up there was hardly anything left of it now. but thanks for the advice guys much appreciated

Wow Dave that is a beautiful set up you have there

This debate has gone well outta my depth

 

[Dave Spencer]

Nice pics Dave, a couple even seem to have been printed in plant books.

Now that is interesting, Colin. Could you tell me which books, as I only recall giving permission to George Farmer and UKAPS to use my photos. The first two pics are of a tank that I have posted on UKAPS, PFK and Aquascaping World (I can PM links to these forums if you wish). The last three are to be found here on post No 43 and No 84:

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...74628&st=40

And here on post No 168:

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...0&start=160

And if most planted tanks have column fertilisation, then some leaching of the root tabs shouldn’t make any difference as it will simply be adding to the nutrients already in the water.

Ahhh, so are you acknowledging that planted tanks can run algae free with a nutrient loaded water column?

Cryptocorynes, & Echinodorus (swordplants) are both marsh plants that can grow under water. When these plants have been growing underwater for some time, they will have lost their emersed leaves and grown submersed leaves that will not continue standing up when the plant is removed from the water.

Virtually all the plants available to us are not true aquatics. Vallis is a rare exception. My Crypts are still rigid when I take them out of the water, although I have only tried a couple of species up to now. I have Cryptocoyne parva, Cryptocoryne undulata, Staurogyne sp, Hygrophila corymbosa "compact", Microsorum sp, Anubias sp, Bolbitis heudolotii plus many more I have had in the past, and they all stand up out of water under their own weight, even after a considerable amount of time under water.

Any pics of your plants yet?

Sorry again, Donna.

 

[Miss_Donna]

It's no problem honestly..

Was you asking for pictures of my plants ???

 

[aaronnorth]

Dave, many of the plant specialist say water changes don't do anything to control algae, or they even encourage it. Now you are saying do water changes. Can you expand on why some people say don’t do them and others say do them?

you should do water changes in the early days, it helps to remove algae spores and ammonia which stops algae growing.

I to have grown crypts & echindorous sp. that are able to support their own weight once they have been growing fine submerged

(wendttii, undulata, parva, miOya, bleheri, radicans) they are just a few that i have grown.

High turn over rates with attempts to get water movement and nutrient delivery to all four corners of the tank is how successful planted tanks are run. The results of a failure to deliver nutrients to all four corners is well known to most people by now. Low nutrients = poor growth = leached ammonia from plants = algae. Nothing new there to most people who know how to run planted tanks.

That is why I can grow plants in a stagnant pond, and the plants do well and there is very little algae?
Dave I’m not sure why you mention plants leaching ammonia into the water. They don't leach ammonia, they use it to grow. Ammonia is a form of nitrogen. The only time plants create ammonia is when they have died and are rotting

You have answered your own question there, (highlighted in bold) Dave said poor growth = ammonia, which it does as they will be rotting.

 

[waterdrop]

WELL! We seem to have a full-blown planted tank argument session going on here! As I beginner I really enjoy this stuff as it always carries the opportunity of learning a bit here and there! Hopefully other beginners will see it and pick up some ideas about how many different ideas and opinions can be running along side by side in the active hobby.

Dave and Colin, I sure hope you two won't get too "fussed up" with each other as I have really, really learned a lot from both of you on TFF and have always valued both of your insights and comments. There is bound to be room for many observations from hobbyists who are in different situations to come together potentially in eventual insight if everyone stays at least a little open to interpretation.

As an almost completely ignorant beginner, I've been soaking up lots of stuff from Dave, Aaron, Andy and others who post a lot in the planted section and I've also learned a lot of stuff from Colin, who clearly has lots of years of tropical experience.

I recently got back from the AGA conference in Atlanta and have been feeling like I should try to post up a few of my beginner thoughts from this "plant immersion" experience, which was wonderful! Tom Barr, Diana W. and George Farmer were not there unfortunately, but many of the others Dave mentions were and I got to talk to Amano and the Senske's and see their work in action.

So here is one of the broad insights I got (maybe I can express it better later.. not very good at writing this type stuff) after a few days at the plant conference. There are (of course) many, many ways to make plants fail. It can be fairly obvious to even a beginner after not very long that aquarium plants can be a difficult topic! BUT, the big surprise for me as a beginner was the feeling I began to get that there are big splits, big divisions, among the planted tank folks (at least at this conference) that are alive and well and being discussed in earnest! There clearly seemed to be -multiple- paths to various levels and types of success in achieving beautiful and healthy planted tanks. I was surprised that Diana Walstad's influence was alive and well with many followers practicing her techniques for natural approaches, but also many of them changing various details and discussing their changes with each other. Likewise, lots and lots of people were clearly doing the type stuff Dave and our planted tank guys discuss, all the way up to very high tech methods in every aspect. People were "all over the place" with respect to advice about flow rates and water changes, -including- at the extremes!

The planted tanks that got done at the conference, by the guys in the "Iron Aquascaper" competition and by Amano in his lectures were simply stunning! I was in awe! There is, in a sense, another division one finds among these folks, where you see that some of them are world-class visual artists who simply want to use water, rocks, driftwood, PLANTS and tropical fish as their OIL PAINT set! Whereas, equally in abundance, there are all the folks who love the SCIENCE type stuff and love to talk of plant finding expeditions, water chemistry, aquarium gear and all that side of the hobby. I went to lectures with weird titles like "Iron Uptake, Roots vs. Leaves!" or such!

Well, I must quit now as "turkey day" is getting busy here in the USA. The mystery of algae-free techniques will probably continue to be discussed in the hobby for years. I'll continue to be interested in all the comments you guys can throw out here into the forums and hope you will recognize each other as valuable contributors!

Your humble "Enthusiastic Re-Beginner!", ~~waterdrop~~

 

[Dave Spencer]

I expect you can feel how jealous I am all the way from this side of the pond.

Still, ADA are sending some guys over here in December for a demonstration on aquascaping, which should be pretty cool.

Planted tanks is pretty dynamic and controversial at the moment, but I do feel there are some ideas that are now dead in the water, no matter what angle of the hobby we are coming from.

Dave.

 

[waterdrop]

Well, I've always like the way you describe your observations about algae and other things pretty carefully and seem pretty balanced describing them as observations. Those kind of descriptions would fit right in with the kinds of discussions I participated in at the conference. Of course the frustrating thing with a weekend conf is that its all over too soon. At least with web forums we have the chance for long time conversations, which is a very valuable thing!

~~waterdrop~~