Advice Please

[dmpfishlover]

I know, I know… Not another stocking question!

But, I couldn’t help it…. I have put so much effort into setting up my tank and getting it cycled, and making sure that I am doing everything right, that I want to make sure I am also stocking my tank properly (BEFORE I add any fish!). I have prior experience, having had aquariums in the past, but there are so many members on here with FAR more experience then myself, and I would like to draw upon that collective knowledge.

I have learned so much from this Forum over the past month, so my original stocking list has changed quite a bit (having learned a lot about some fish species that I had never kept before). Example: my original stocking list had Hillstream Loaches on it, but after learning about their Temperature and Flow requirements, they have been crossed off my list.

Anyway, I believe that the species I have listed below are all compatible with my water parameters, my tank size and each other…. but I wanted to make sure that I wasn’t missing something that someone else might notice in my list.

Also, I really need advice on stocking numbers… Are the numbers I am planning on stocking (#’s in parentheses after each fish species) too high, too low, just right? I want to make sure I have the right amount of each species, but at the same time that I am not overstocking the tank. I have never had a tank this large, so I am honestly not sure what numbers are appropriate.

I also hoped to get some advice/opinions on a few species that I am a little torn between.

Tank Size: 55 Gal (48 X 13 X 21 inch)
Substrate: Sand
Hardscape: Lots of Driftwood and some Rocks
Plants: None yet, but I plan on adding lots of Live Plants as soon as the tank is fully cycled
GH = 143 ppm
pH = 7.4
dKH = 5

Here are my plans for stocking the Tank:

Top Dwellers:
Brown, Diptail, or Hockeystick Pencil Fish (Nannostomus eques) (6-8)
.…..OR…..
Silver or Marble Hatchetfish (Gasteropelecus levis) (6-8)
Which species would be best? Opinions?

Shoaling/Schooling Fish:
Rummy nose Tetras (or Firehead Tetra) (Hemigrammus bleheri) (15-20)
Harlequin Rasboras (Trigonostigma heteromorpha) (12-15)
Neon Tetra (Paracheirodon innesi)….. OR…. Cardinal Tetra (Paracheirodon axelrodi) (12-15).
Which would be better, Neons or Cardinals? Opinions? I hear mixed things about both species, so I am just not sure which to go with.

Other Fish:
Apistogramma (Suggestions for species please?! J) (Pair or Single? Or a group?)
….. OR.…
Bolivian Rams (Pair or Single? Or a group?)
Which species would be best? Opinions? Or another suggestion altogether? I know that both of these species are bottom dwellers, so I am wondering if they will be okay with Cories?

Bottom Dwellers:
Corydoras Catfish (Corydoras julii/trilineatus, or Corydoras sterbai, or other?) (10-15 of the species I decide on)

Algae Eaters:
Otocinclus (8-12)

Which species should I stock first? Which would be the best to start off with? I know that Otocinclus should be added much later in the game when the tank is more mature and there is some algae in the tank. But other than that, which fish should I add first, or last?

THANKS!!!

 

[Gargantuan The Oscar]

For top dwellers, I say the Hockey pencil fish, cardinal tetras for the schooling, Apistogramma, and for the bottom dwellers, i'd say the corycats.

 

[dmpfishlover]

For top dwellers, I say the Hockey pencil fish, cardinal tetras for the schooling, Apistogramma, and for the bottom dwellers, i'd say the corycats.

Thanks, I am hoping that I can find out if my stocking plans are going to way overstock my tank and if I should cut back on either some of the numbers, or some of the species?...Or if my numbers are fine? Hopefully someone can advise on this...

 

[Byron]

My first suggestion is to add the plants ASAP. Once they are showing signs of growth (as opposed to dying off) you can forget "cycling" completely. And make sure you have floating plants; these are essential for the surface fish, plus they are faster growing which means more benefit with water quality from the start. Life is much simpler.

When you do add fish, for the shoaling species always acquire/add the entire intended group at the same time. Fish will always settle in faster the more of them there are, which means less chance of stress bringing on ich. And those species that may have some form of hierarchy will develop this fairly quickly, and adding more later can sometimes be problematic.

Now, some hopefully interesting notes on surface fish. You have the space, why not have both the pencilfish and hatchetfish? I've had these together for many years on and off. You also need to increase the group for these fish. Nannostomus eques I would say 12-15. As for hatchetfish, let's clarify the species.

The family Gasteropelecidae contains three genera. Thoracocharax, the most primitive group and distinguished by its impressive keel, contains two species, T. securis and T. stellatus. Gasteropelecus contains three recognized species, G. sternicla, G. maculatus, and G. levis. These two genera contain the largest in size of the hatchetfish, all possess an adipose fin, and all are silver in colouration; G. sternicla is the more frequently seen of these five species, though any of them are frequently offered as "Silver Hatchetfish." T. stellatus is a real beauty, often commonly called the Platinum Hatchetfish because of the sheen, and the Latin scientific epithet stellatus means "starry." The third genus, Carnegiella, contains four species that are the most derived or specialized of the hatchetfishes, and all are smaller in size and lack an adipose fin.

The Thoracocharax and Gasteropelecus species are larger, and tend to remain just below the surface; they also in my experience are a bit more active than those in Carnegiella, and the interplay of a group of T. stellatus can be very interesting to observe. Carnegiella species by contrast always remain at the surface, except when they descend due to interaction, spawning, or if startled. They are much more sedate than the fish in the two previous genera. All of these fish will rapidly jump from the water if something below startles them, so make sure there are no excess open spaces around the heater/filter.

I would not combine different species from Thoracocharax and/or Gasteropelecus. A group of 9-12 of one of these species would be best. Carnegiella again is a bit different.

The popular Marble Hatchetfish, C. strigata, needs a group of 15-20 here. Same holds for the other two/three species; C. marthae, C. schereri, and the smallest known hatchetfish C. myersi. The latter is especially delicate and sensitive and would not be my choice in a tank this large. It is best in a smaller space, and it must have very sedate fish below it. But a group of 15-20 of the other three, individually or combined species, would be a better match and for the pencilfish too. If you do mix the species, try getting equal numbers, and I would say 20 with 10 of C. strigata and 10 of C. marthae would be best.

C. marthae and C. schereri are biologically interesting fish. An almost identical but slightly smaller species to C. marthae, C. schereri, occurs in the Peruvian Amazon basin; Gery (1977) suggested that this was a subspecies, C. marthae schereri. The species in Carnegiella show geographic variations according to the locality. This has long been recognized with the marble hatchetfish C. strigata which at various times had five recognized species. Gery (1977) noted that the species in this genus are polytipic, meaning that there are two or more distinct populations that can be recognized within each species. He suggested that the Orinoco and Negro system fish of the C. marthae group should be considered a subspecies, C. marthae marthae, and the species C. schereri from the Peruvian Amazon the subspecies C. marthae schereri.

C. marthae is widespread in the Rio Negro floodplain in Brazil. Recent research has identified highly differentiated and divergent population groups representing three cryptic species (Piggott, et al., 2011). Two colour morphs were discovered; the dark morph has 12 dark oblique lines across the body, whereas on the light colour morph these are diffused dotted lines. Other differentiating features include the number of soft anal fin rays, the number of tricuspid teeth on the dentary bone, and several morphometric measurements. The dark morph is the more prevalent in the Rio Negro basin, and represents genetic group C in the study, while the white morph represents genetic group A. Genetic group B fishes are morphologically similar to the dark Group C morph but the authors point out that additional sampling will be needed to test for morphological divergence between Group B and the other two groups. Fish from Groups A and C live sympatrically in at least two creeks and can even be caught together in the same net. Yet they demonstrate complete and intrinsic reproductive isolation [=not based on geographic barriers]. Partial reproductive isolation was identified for Groups B and C, with a small sampling of putative hybrids.

The Marble Hatchetfish, C. strigata, has a very obvious varied pattern depending upon its origin location, primarily with respect to the mid band across the keel. At one time or another, five species were recognized, reorganized into two by Weitzman in 1960, C. strigata and C. vesca. Gery (1977) recognized the very close physiological structure and modified these into subspecies as C. strigata strigata and C. strigata fasciata respectively, and (as mentioned above) noted that all species in this genus are polytipic. Weitzman & Palmer in Reis, et al. (2003) consider the one single species C. strigata.

More recent phylogenetic analysis has shown that while the genus Carnegiella is monophyletic, which term means all species are descended from the same ancestor, the species C. strigata is not. Examination of populations within the Negro and Uatuma blackwater rivers has revealed two monophyletic lineages within this species, with considerable genetic distance (10-12%) between them, making it probable that there are (as Weitzman had hypothesized) two distinct species within this complex (Schneider, et al, 2012; Abe, et al, 2013).

I have in the past managed to get groups of both Marble varieties, and when seen together they are clearly obvious. The first photo below shows some of my hatchets from 2008, there are C. marthae, C. strigata, and C. myersi (the "elongated" hatchet). Can you identify which of the C. strigata forms I had then, lol?

 

[dmpfishlover]

My first suggestion is to add the plants ASAP. Once they are showing signs of growth (as opposed to dying off) you can forget "cycling" completely. And make sure you have floating plants; these are essential for the surface fish, plus they are faster growing which means more benefit with water quality from the start. Life is much simpler.

When you do add fish, for the shoaling species always acquire/add the entire intended group at the same time. Fish will always settle in faster the more of them there are, which means less chance of stress bringing on ich. And those species that may have some form of hierarchy will develop this fairly quickly, and adding more later can sometimes be problematic.

Now, some hopefully interesting notes on surface fish. You have the space, why not have both the pencilfish and hatchetfish? I've had these together for many years on and off. You also need to increase the group for these fish. Nannostomus eques I would say 12-15. As for hatchetfish, let's clarify the species.

The family Gasteropelecidae contains three genera. Thoracocharax, the most primitive group and distinguished by its impressive keel, contains two species, T. securis and T. stellatus. Gasteropelecus contains three recognized species, G. sternicla, G. maculatus, and G. levis. These two genera contain the largest in size of the hatchetfish, all possess an adipose fin, and all are silver in colouration; G. sternicla is the more frequently seen of these five species, though any of them are frequently offered as "Silver Hatchetfish." T. stellatus is a real beauty, often commonly called the Platinum Hatchetfish because of the sheen, and the Latin scientific epithet stellatus means "starry." The third genus, Carnegiella, contains four species that are the most derived or specialized of the hatchetfishes, and all are smaller in size and lack an adipose fin.

The Thoracocharax and Gasteropelecus species are larger, and tend to remain just below the surface; they also in my experience are a bit more active than those in Carnegiella, and the interplay of a group of T. stellatus can be very interesting to observe. Carnegiella species by contrast always remain at the surface, except when they descend due to interaction, spawning, or if startled. They are much more sedate than the fish in the two previous genera. All of these fish will rapidly jump from the water if something below startles them, so make sure there are no excess open spaces around the heater/filter.

I would not combine different species from Thoracocharax and/or Gasteropelecus. A group of 9-12 of one of these species would be best. Carnegiella again is a bit different.

The popular Marble Hatchetfish, C. strigata, needs a group of 15-20 here. Same holds for the other two/three species; C. marthae, C. schereri, and the smallest known hatchetfish C. myersi. The latter is especially delicate and sensitive and would not be my choice in a tank this large. It is best in a smaller space, and it must have very sedate fish below it. But a group of 15-20 of the other three, individually or combined species, would be a better match and for the pencilfish too. If you do mix the species, try getting equal numbers, and I would say 20 with 10 of C. strigata and 10 of C. marthae would be best.

C. marthae and C. schereri are biologically interesting fish. An almost identical but slightly smaller species to C. marthae, C. schereri, occurs in the Peruvian Amazon basin; Gery (1977) suggested that this was a subspecies, C. marthae schereri. The species in Carnegiella show geographic variations according to the locality. This has long been recognized with the marble hatchetfish C. strigata which at various times had five recognized species. Gery (1977) noted that the species in this genus are polytipic, meaning that there are two or more distinct populations that can be recognized within each species. He suggested that the Orinoco and Negro system fish of the C. marthae group should be considered a subspecies, C. marthae marthae, and the species C. schereri from the Peruvian Amazon the subspecies C. marthae schereri.

C. marthae is widespread in the Rio Negro floodplain in Brazil. Recent research has identified highly differentiated and divergent population groups representing three cryptic species (Piggott, et al., 2011). Two colour morphs were discovered; the dark morph has 12 dark oblique lines across the body, whereas on the light colour morph these are diffused dotted lines. Other differentiating features include the number of soft anal fin rays, the number of tricuspid teeth on the dentary bone, and several morphometric measurements. The dark morph is the more prevalent in the Rio Negro basin, and represents genetic group C in the study, while the white morph represents genetic group A. Genetic group B fishes are morphologically similar to the dark Group C morph but the authors point out that additional sampling will be needed to test for morphological divergence between Group B and the other two groups. Fish from Groups A and C live sympatrically in at least two creeks and can even be caught together in the same net. Yet they demonstrate complete and intrinsic reproductive isolation [=not based on geographic barriers]. Partial reproductive isolation was identified for Groups B and C, with a small sampling of putative hybrids.

The Marble Hatchetfish, C. strigata, has a very obvious varied pattern depending upon its origin location, primarily with respect to the mid band across the keel. At one time or another, five species were recognized, reorganized into two by Weitzman in 1960, C. strigata and C. vesca. Gery (1977) recognized the very close physiological structure and modified these into subspecies as C. strigata strigata and C. strigata fasciata respectively, and (as mentioned above) noted that all species in this genus are polytipic. Weitzman & Palmer in Reis, et al. (2003) consider the one single species C. strigata.

More recent phylogenetic analysis has shown that while the genus Carnegiella is monophyletic, which term means all species are descended from the same ancestor, the species C. strigata is not. Examination of populations within the Negro and Uatuma blackwater rivers has revealed two monophyletic lineages within this species, with considerable genetic distance (10-12%) between them, making it probable that there are (as Weitzman had hypothesized) two distinct species within this complex (Schneider, et al, 2012; Abe, et al, 2013).

I have in the past managed to get groups of both Marble varieties, and when seen together they are clearly obvious. The first photo below shows some of my hatchets from 2008, there are C. marthae, C. strigata, and C. myersi (the "elongated" hatchet). Can you identify which of the C. strigata forms I had then, lol?

I definitely plan on adding plants as soon as I can, but this will have to wait until I return from vacation in 4 weeks. I also definitely plan on adding floating plants, as I know how beneficial they are, and I like the look of the roots hanging down in the water. I won't be adding fish until after I have added plants.

I had already planned on adding each species "all at once" as an entire group, in the number that I intend to stock for that species... I had read another thread in which you advised to do this, so this is my plan.

As for the pencil fish and hatchet fish, I would LOVE to stock both, but I am uncertain if I will be able to stock both species considering the other species and their numbers that I would like to stock. So, that is why I put the "OR" in between pencil fish and hatchet fish, because I thought I might have to chose between the two in order to avoid overstocking my tank. I don't want to overstock my tank and I am afraid that if I stock each species on my list in the numbers I am considering that I might be getting close to the "overstocked" number of fish. But then again, as I mentioned in my post, I have never had a tank this size, so I really don't have an idea of how many fish I can stock it with. If I were to stock the tank with the species and numbers of fish I have listed, would I be overstocking my tank? Or could I add both pencil fish and hatchet fish?

Thank you for all of the detailed information on the different species of hatchet fish!! I knew that there were several different species, but I didn't know that there were THAT many! Wow! Based on your background information, I think that I am going to look for T. stellatus.

 

[Byron]

I only dealt with hatchets and pencils to avoid a novel sized post, but there is nothing amiss with numbers of lower species, with the pencils and hatchets in the numbers I cited.

I wold rethink 8-12 otos though...I admit these are not particular favourites of mine, primarily because you rarely see them in a planted tank and I prefer fish like cories that are out and about most of the time. But 8 is a lot...I had three in my 90g and 5 in my 115g tanks several years ago and I have no idea what effect they had on algae because they do not eat the "problem" algae anyway, and the common algae is usually invisible to most of us unless it gets out of hand.

 

[Byron]

I could comment on the cichlid question. Bolivian Rams (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi) must select their mates, but a solitary male does very well. He will own the tank space, and push cories out of his way especially when feeding as both feed from sinking foods on the substrate, but nothing usually comes of it. With either cichlid if you do get a pair and want spawning to result in fry, it won't with cories in the tank. They will easily get the eggs at night when the cichlids are "sleeping," or if they might miss the eggs and come across the shoal of fry it is usually game over in seconds.

 

[dmpfishlover]

I only dealt with hatchets and pencils to avoid a novel sized post, but there is nothing amiss with numbers of lower species, with the pencils and hatchets in the numbers I cited.

I wold rethink 8-12 otos though...I admit these are not particular favourites of mine, primarily because you rarely see them in a planted tank and I prefer fish like cories that are out and about most of the time. But 8 is a lot...I had three in my 90g and 5 in my 115g tanks several years ago and I have no idea what effect they had on algae because they do not eat the "problem" algae anyway, and the common algae is usually invisible to most of us unless it gets out of hand.

Thank you so much!

I had simply thrown out the # 8-12 because I heard that Otos are a shoaling fish and do better in numbers.

Would a BN Pleco (or two?) be a better algae eater to add to the tank then the Otos? Would one or two BN Plecos be okay with Cories? No matter what, I am stocking Cories, because I really like them, but I would like to have an algae eater as well, not to control the algae in the tank, because I know that is ultimately my job... But I like the idea of the tank functioning like a mini ecosystem with everyone doing their "job". Are BN Plecos shaoling fish, or are they okay as a single or a pair of fish? Just throwing out another idea..

 

[dmpfishlover]

I could comment on the cichlid question. Bolivian Rams (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi) must select their mates, but a solitary male does very well. He will own the tank space, and push cories out of his way especially when feeding as both feed from sinking foods on the substrate, but nothing usually comes of it. With either cichlid if you do get a pair and want spawning to result in fry, it won't with cories in the tank. They will easily get the eggs at night when the cichlids are "sleeping," or if they might miss the eggs and come across the shoal of fry it is usually game over in seconds.

Good to know, thank you! For now, I am not planning on breeding the fish, so perhaps a single male Bolivian Ram will be best.

Breeding might come later, as I add more tanks. then, I would probably have a species only tank for any that I plan on breeding.

 

[Munroco]

I think your stocking list will work well whichever you choose. Everyone will have their own favourites but it's down to your own preferences.

 

[seangee]

A solitary BN will be fine. Mine is 16 years old this year. But only get one if you want it in its own right. They aren't particualrly effective cleaners. You really are better off establishing the right balance in your tank and avoiding problem algae in the first place. As @Byron says, you can't see the good algae anyway.

 

[dmpfishlover]

A solitary BN will be fine. Mine is 16 years old this year. But only get one if you want it in its own right. They aren't particualrly effective cleaners. You really are better off establishing the right balance in your tank and avoiding problem algae in the first place. As @Byron says, you can't see the good algae anyway.

I think that I want an algae eater simply because I like the idea of the tank being like a mini ecosystem, with everyone doing their "job". I didn't plan on getting an algae eater, to control algae in the tank, as I know that won't really work and that a balanced tank wont have to many issues with "problem" algae anyway, and that some of the right kind of algae is actually a sign of a healthy tank..... Perhaps Snails might be a nice addition instead of an algae eating fish? Maybe some Nerite Snails? Just to fill that ecosystem niche?

 

[Byron]

I think that I want an algae eater simply because I like the idea of the tank being like a mini ecosystem, with everyone doing their "job". I didn't plan on getting an algae eater, to control algae in the tank, as I know that won't really work and that a balanced tank wont have to many issues with "problem" algae anyway, and that some of the right kind of algae is actually a sign of a healthy tank..... Perhaps Snails might be a nice addition instead of an algae eating fish? Maybe some Nerite Snails? Just to fill that ecosystem niche?

Nothing wrong with an algae-type fish, though some do have issues if they can't get sufficient algae. I've had otos in some tanks, Farlowella vitatta (Twig catfish) in other tanks, and Rineloricaria parva (common Whiptail) in other tanks. They all graze surfaces and should become used to eating sinking algae or kelp-base disks.

Snails do eat algae, and as well as anything when we are talking the common "unseen" algae. Small snails like pond snails, bladder snails and Malaysian Livebearing snails will easily handle this, plus the benefit they eat all organics including fish excrement which breaks it down faster for the various bacteria to deal with. These mentioned willnot harm healthy plants, they eat decaying/dead plant matter.