Addicted And Confused.

[jmartin71]

So first off thanks for all the welcomes and comments on my 26 gal bow and the help on the issue. I will tell you that I have 100% percent water changed it and returned the fish that were in it and I have started the fish in cycle with three Red Eye Tetras so I will need to come up with what type of fish I will put in this tank as well. So enough with that let's continue the thread!! So here is my background with aquariums and it's span is 97 days!! So I began looking for things to read and I have found two forums and I have read a lot of stuff that has made my mind cloudy!! My biggest confusion is this fishless cycle that you are supposed to do and if you don't you are labeled a fish murder! So I decided that this weekend I would visit five lfs's and ask them about this type of tank cycling. As many of you are reading probably know the answer but it was described to me in way that I found very compelling. They told me why would I add something synthetic that is toxic and not allow it to take it's natural course. But I know that there are no fish but the process is unnatural because it is not natural ingredients causing the cycle. So maybe I'm gullible but I tend to agree. So I am using a place that is 30 mins from my house and has been the most respected lfs in the area for 42 years. So I would like some help on configuring my new addition that I purchased today. But I would like the comments about fishless cycle and that since the lfs doesn't recommend it that they are not above killing fish as I read in another post on here not to happen. If this is a true community on here than we should all be able to agree to disagree.

Ok now that that's over I am happy to announce I am the proud owner of a brand new 90 gallon tank. Here is what I bought:

90 Gallon 48x18x24 Oak finish with an Oak Stand
Glass Top
Aquaclear Filter Model 110
Fluval Canister Filter 305
Aquaticlife 48" 2x54w bulbs
Visitherm 300 watt Heater
Tam Digital Thermometer
Gravel and Flourite Clay substrate
I am also going to buy some bubble stones or a wand not sure yet

So I would like to do some plants not a lot of them just a few also some driftwood and some rocks. I don't like ornaments I like the more natural look. What would the forum recommend as far as plants go for this tank?

Now the big question, what kind of fish? My boys and I really like Angels and Clown Loaches. When we were at the store they had 2 big loaches and my 6 yr old was mad because he wanted to buy them today and I told him no! So I need to find a good mix of fish that can all get along. I then have thought of cichlids since they are colorful. I am like a kid in a candy store when I look at fish. Sharks, Angels, Cichlids, I want them all what should I do. I have seen community set ups online but some of them say to put fish together and then I read they shouldn't be together. Also what fish can be with planted plants can I mix synthetic and real plants.

That's it and thanks in advance and I hope my opening paragraph doesn't turn you off of helping. I really want to be part of this community and learn from the people here.

Jason

 

[fluttermoth]

So first off thanks for all the welcomes and comments on my 26 gal bow and the help on the issue. I will tell you that I have 100% percent water changed it and returned the fish that were in it and I have started the fish in cycle with three Red Eye Tetras so I will need to come up with what type of fish I will put in this tank as well. So enough with that let's continue the thread!! So here is my background with aquariums and it's span is 97 days!! So I began looking for things to read and I have found two forums and I have read a lot of stuff that has made my mind cloudy!! My biggest confusion is this fishless cycle that you are supposed to do and if you don't you are labeled a fish murder! So I decided that this weekend I would visit five lfs's and ask them about this type of tank cycling. As many of you are reading probably know the answer but it was described to me in way that I found very compelling. They told me why would I add something synthetic that is toxic and not allow it to take it's natural course. But I know that there are no fish but the process is unnatural because it is not natural ingredients causing the cycle. So maybe I'm gullible but I tend to agree. So I am using a place that is 30 mins from my house and has been the most respected lfs in the area for 42 years. So I would like some help on configuring my new addition that I purchased today. But I would like the comments about fishless cycle and that since the lfs doesn't recommend it that they are not above killing fish as I read in another post on here not to happen. If this is a true community on here than we should all be able to agree to disagree.

Hmmmm.....
There is an awful lot wrong in your understanding of fishless cycling. Ammonia is a natural product; it's not synthetic. What do you think is in fish wastes? Yes, it's toxic, but not to you; not in the concentrations we're talking about. It's ammonia that kills fish during a fish-in cycle; it's from the fish themselves.

A fishless cycle is a replication of a perfectly natural proccess, the only difference being that you won't kill fish if you get it wrong, which will happen if you get it wrong with a fish in cycle. I don't understand why you would want to take that risk if you can avoid it?

If this LFS is so marvellous, surely they could donate you some used media and then, with careful, gradual stocking, you'll eliminate the cycling proccess altogether.

So I would like to do some plants not a lot of them just a few also some driftwood and some rocks. I don't like ornaments I like the more natural look. What would the forum recommend as far as plants go for this tank?

All these plants do well for beginners; Java fern, Indian fern, vallisneria, Anubias, cryptocorynes.

Now the big question, what kind of fish? My boys and I really like Angels and Clown Loaches. When we were at the store they had 2 big loaches and my 6 yr old was mad because he wanted to buy them today and I told him no! So I need to find a good mix of fish that can all get along. I then have thought of cichlids since they are colorful. I am like a kid in a candy store when I look at fish. Sharks, Angels, Cichlids, I want them all what should I do. I have seen community set ups online but some of them say to put fish together and then I read they shouldn't be together. Also what fish can be with planted plants can I mix synthetic and real plants.

I'd strongly advise against the clown loach; they get too big for your tank (they can grow to over a foot long if well looked after and given enough space)

Angels are cichlids. Cichlids are a very varied family of fish; some are African and are very agressive and need very hard, alkaline water. Others come from South America and need very soft, acidic water. They vary in size from a couple of inches to well over a foot for some of the larger species; you'll have to research more carefully which ones you actually want.

Same with sharks; some would be ok in your tank, some would not; it all depends what particular species you're thinking of.

Most fish can be kept with plants. You can certainly mix real and fake plants together.

That's it and thanks in advance and I hope my opening paragraph doesn't turn you off of helping. I really want to be part of this community and learn from the people here.

Jason

It doesn't put me off, but you might just have to listen to a lot of people disagreeing with you. You're on a forum of serious fishkeepers and some people will find it hard to be sympathetic to someone who would willingly put the welfare of their fish at risk when it's not neccessary.

We all just have the best interests of the fish at heart, and we (well, most of us, lol) want to help you have a healthy, successful tank.

 

[jmartin71]

So first off thanks for all the welcomes and comments on my 26 gal bow and the help on the issue. I will tell you that I have 100% percent water changed it and returned the fish that were in it and I have started the fish in cycle with three Red Eye Tetras so I will need to come up with what type of fish I will put in this tank as well. So enough with that let's continue the thread!! So here is my background with aquariums and it's span is 97 days!! So I began looking for things to read and I have found two forums and I have read a lot of stuff that has made my mind cloudy!! My biggest confusion is this fishless cycle that you are supposed to do and if you don't you are labeled a fish murder! So I decided that this weekend I would visit five lfs's and ask them about this type of tank cycling. As many of you are reading probably know the answer but it was described to me in way that I found very compelling. They told me why would I add something synthetic that is toxic and not allow it to take it's natural course. But I know that there are no fish but the process is unnatural because it is not natural ingredients causing the cycle. So maybe I'm gullible but I tend to agree. So I am using a place that is 30 mins from my house and has been the most respected lfs in the area for 42 years. So I would like some help on configuring my new addition that I purchased today. But I would like the comments about fishless cycle and that since the lfs doesn't recommend it that they are not above killing fish as I read in another post on here not to happen. If this is a true community on here than we should all be able to agree to disagree.

Hmmmm.....
There is an awful lot wrong in your understanding of fishless cycling. Ammonia is a natural product; it's not synthetic. What do you think is in fish wastes? Yes, it's toxic, but not to you; not in the concentrations we're talking about. It's ammonia that kills fish during a fish-in cycle; it's from the fish themselves.

A fishless cycle is a replication of a perfectly natural proccess, the only difference being that you won't kill fish if you get it wrong, which will happen if you get it wrong with a fish in cycle. I don't understand why you would want to take that risk if you can avoid it?

If this LFS is so marvellous, surely they could donate you some used media and then, with careful, gradual stocking, you'll eliminate the cycling proccess altogether.

So I would like to do some plants not a lot of them just a few also some driftwood and some rocks. I don't like ornaments I like the more natural look. What would the forum recommend as far as plants go for this tank?

All these plants do well for beginners; Java fern, Indian fern, vallisneria, Anubias, cryptocorynes.

Now the big question, what kind of fish? My boys and I really like Angels and Clown Loaches. When we were at the store they had 2 big loaches and my 6 yr old was mad because he wanted to buy them today and I told him no! So I need to find a good mix of fish that can all get along. I then have thought of cichlids since they are colorful. I am like a kid in a candy store when I look at fish. Sharks, Angels, Cichlids, I want them all what should I do. I have seen community set ups online but some of them say to put fish together and then I read they shouldn't be together. Also what fish can be with planted plants can I mix synthetic and real plants.

I'd strongly advise against the clown loach; they get too big for your tank (they can grow to over a foot long if well looked after and given enough space)

Angels are cichlids. Cichlids are a very varied family of fish; some are African and are very agressive and need very hard, alkaline water. Others come from South America and need very soft, acidic water. They vary in size from a couple of inches to well over a foot for some of the larger species; you'll have to research more carefully which ones you actually want.

Same with sharks; some would be ok in your tank, some would not; it all depends what particular species you're thinking of.

Most fish can be kept with plants. You can certainly mix real and fake plants together.

That's it and thanks in advance and I hope my opening paragraph doesn't turn you off of helping. I really want to be part of this community and learn from the people here.

Jason

It doesn't put me off, but you might just have to listen to a lot of people disagreeing with you. You're on a forum of serious fishkeepers and some people will find it hard to be sympathetic to someone who would willingly put the welfare of their fish at risk when it's not neccessary.

We all just have the best interests of the fish at heart, and we (well, most of us, lol) want to help you have a healthy, successful tank.

Thanks for the advice!!

Question clown loach can not go in a 90 gallon tank? I thought was an ideal size for them!! I have read every where that need 60-90 gallons so these are my issues who do I trust?

 

[Baccus]

I am no expert in fish in or fishless cycling but the general concenssus seems to be fishless is best simply to get nitrates and nitrites more or less stable before adding the fish. Once you begin adding fish however you need to do it gradually so that the beneficial microbes that you have begun cultivating in the filter medium and the tank in general can build up to take care of the new added bioload from the new fish. For example don't go adding twenty odd fish to a brand new tank that didn't have a mature mircobe load, otherwise you will get a massive spike in nitrites which can ultimately end up killing all your fish. I know its tempting to go into a fish shop and say I'll have one of them, 10 of them, 2 of them, 5 of them etc and whack them all in the tank at once but this is a really bad idea. Much better to get a couple of fish, add them make sure the water stats are staying stable and the fish are staying alive and healthy and then in a couple of weeks all going well, look at adding either some more of the same species if you where wanting to create a school or a couple of different fish if you want to have a mixed community. While you are cycling the fish (since you already have a few) you can add the plants that you want as well as the wood as these can help take out some toxins while the wood will most likely release most of its tannins. All of this the good microbes that you want will take in their stride. Live plants will also help by converting nitrites to less harmfull nitrates, helping to stabilise the water chemistery. This is just a very basic run down on cycling and I am sure others can help more in this area.

As for the actual types of fish, well everyone has their likes and dislikes, personally I'd stick with the hardier varieties which are usually the cheaper fish before leaping feet first into the species of fish that can be down right finiky on water quality and generally more expensive. Research is your friend! Decide on what type of tank you really want for example to do want to create a tropical tank that will eventually look like you took a small section of nature ( a creek or lagoon) and put it in a tank, or do you want a rather bare moonscape type of tank with lots of rock for say a Lake Malawi Mbuna cichlid display. Once you decide on the look that you want to create with your tank start researching one particular fish that you really like (say angels) and find out what type of water they require hard, soft, heated to what temp. From there it is easy enough to find other fish from either the same region or that come from silimar habitats and find out if these other species of fish are generally considered a peaceful fish like the inoffensive corydoras and Khuli loach or can they be rather aggressive and untisocial like say an oscar that will eat nearly everyting smaller than it, fight territorally with their own species and destroy almost all plant life in the tank. Even an angel fish when large enough will more than likely have a snack on neon tetras sharing their tank. Therefore always find out the potential adult size (any good fish book should tell have this info noted) of any species/ variety of fish you are wanting to keep, and try to keep fish of similar character and size together. Even the humble guppy can be a right royal pain (aside from breeding like rabbits) in that they can nip and harrass long flowing fins on slower less agile fish.
Yes you can mix synthetic and real plants, out of my own preferance I always go for real as its so beneficital for the tank and gives the fish something extra to nibble on, as well as providing hiding places for fry.
A tip when checking out any fish books to either read or purchase I always check when it was published and where incase they only talk in metric and you only know imperial, I also keep in mind a particular fish that may not be very common and if they have good information on that particular type of fish I'll begin considering it as a good book to have. I use the same technique when getting a new gardening book or bird book and it's helped me a lot so far.

Also check out the other sections of this forum as these will have keepers and often breeders of certian varieties/ species of fish and will be able to tell you what they have found to be a compatible mix. For every rule you can almost always find a fish that makes the exception either good or bad, but that's just life and to be expected. So I would always take what other people have tried and succeed with or failed with into account when making your final selections. If heaps of people say don't on any circumastances mix fish A with fish B then it's a pretty safe bet they are speaking from painful experience.

Hope this helps and you enjoy the rest of this forum.

 

[Tolak]

Clown loachs do better in larger groups, much like corys. You'd want a group of at least 5, if not more. You're looking at a standard 180 long to keep a group such as this long term, 72"x24"x24". While they are slow growers, and the 90 gallon will work for a while it won't work for the lifetime of the fish.

 

[jmartin71]

Clown loachs do better in larger groups, much like corys. You'd want a group of at least 5, if not more. You're looking at a standard 180 long to keep a group such as this long term, 72"x24"x24". While they are slow growers, and the 90 gallon will work for a while it won't work for the lifetime of the fish.

Ok another good point I have read at least 3 and your saying 5. I went with 90 based on what I read so we could to some of those. So if I buy these at a 2-2.5 inch starting size and let them grow can they be moved into a different tank or is that bad fish practice?

I am no expert in fish in or fishless cycling but the general concenssus seems to be fishless is best simply to get nitrates and nitrites more or less stable before adding the fish. Once you begin adding fish however you need to do it gradually so that the beneficial microbes that you have begun cultivating in the filter medium and the tank in general can build up to take care of the new added bioload from the new fish. For example don't go adding twenty odd fish to a brand new tank that didn't have a mature mircobe load, otherwise you will get a massive spike in nitrites which can ultimately end up killing all your fish. I know its tempting to go into a fish shop and say I'll have one of them, 10 of them, 2 of them, 5 of them etc and whack them all in the tank at once but this is a really bad idea. Much better to get a couple of fish, add them make sure the water stats are staying stable and the fish are staying alive and healthy and then in a couple of weeks all going well, look at adding either some more of the same species if you where wanting to create a school or a couple of different fish if you want to have a mixed community. While you are cycling the fish (since you already have a few) you can add the plants that you want as well as the wood as these can help take out some toxins while the wood will most likely release most of its tannins. All of this the good microbes that you want will take in their stride. Live plants will also help by converting nitrites to less harmfull nitrates, helping to stabilise the water chemistery. This is just a very basic run down on cycling and I am sure others can help more in this area.

As for the actual types of fish, well everyone has their likes and dislikes, personally I'd stick with the hardier varieties which are usually the cheaper fish before leaping feet first into the species of fish that can be down right finiky on water quality and generally more expensive. Research is your friend! Decide on what type of tank you really want for example to do want to create a tropical tank that will eventually look like you took a small section of nature ( a creek or lagoon) and put it in a tank, or do you want a rather bare moonscape type of tank with lots of rock for say a Lake Malawi Mbuna cichlid display. Once you decide on the look that you want to create with your tank start researching one particular fish that you really like (say angels) and find out what type of water they require hard, soft, heated to what temp. From there it is easy enough to find other fish from either the same region or that come from silimar habitats and find out if these other species of fish are generally considered a peaceful fish like the inoffensive corydoras and Khuli loach or can they be rather aggressive and untisocial like say an oscar that will eat nearly everyting smaller than it, fight territorally with their own species and destroy almost all plant life in the tank. Even an angel fish when large enough will more than likely have a snack on neon tetras sharing their tank. Therefore always find out the potential adult size (any good fish book should tell have this info noted) of any species/ variety of fish you are wanting to keep, and try to keep fish of similar character and size together. Even the humble guppy can be a right royal pain (aside from breeding like rabbits) in that they can nip and harrass long flowing fins on slower less agile fish.
Yes you can mix synthetic and real plants, out of my own preferance I always go for real as its so beneficital for the tank and gives the fish something extra to nibble on, as well as providing hiding places for fry.
A tip when checking out any fish books to either read or purchase I always check when it was published and where incase they only talk in metric and you only know imperial, I also keep in mind a particular fish that may not be very common and if they have good information on that particular type of fish I'll begin considering it as a good book to have. I use the same technique when getting a new gardening book or bird book and it's helped me a lot so far.

Also check out the other sections of this forum as these will have keepers and often breeders of certian varieties/ species of fish and will be able to tell you what they have found to be a compatible mix. For every rule you can almost always find a fish that makes the exception either good or bad, but that's just life and to be expected. So I would always take what other people have tried and succeed with or failed with into account when making your final selections. If heaps of people say don't on any circumastances mix fish A with fish B then it's a pretty safe bet they are speaking from painful experience.

Hope this helps and you enjoy the rest of this forum.

Thanks for the info and post!!

 

[Tolak]

The loachs certainly can be moved into a larger tank as they grow. This is common practice with keepers & breeders of many species.

 

[Miles_hot]

As I understand it (having not yet started a cycle!) the fishless cycle is about growing bacteria - a seemingly boring and invisible process which can take weeks/months and has little, visually, to do with fish and all the stuff which you want to do. It also pretty much guarantees that you will not kill any fish (the only real uncertainty is things like disease and poor tank layout).

For this reason it can be a hard sell especially if you have fallen for the idea of having fish - after all it's not often that you wake up, look out of the window and say to your self "today I'd like to grow two different types of bacteria, I wonder how I do that"

As for ammonia being an unnatural and toxic product - well it's 100% natural (and it's what your pretty fish produce for you) so that's wrong and also it's your bacteria's food so not toxic You wouldn't be adding it to the tank when you have fish.

The key cause of conflict between the experts here and the experts in your IFS is that the guys here don't need to make a sale. I know it seems harsh to brand a whole group of people who are experts (mainly) as fish killers etc so I will not. I will however point out that each IFS is in competition with every other one and the internet to sell kit, chemicals and above all fish. As such he needs to make a sale to you today or impress/promise enough that you will come back to him when you're ready to buy fish. He needs to eat / pay the mortgage / look after his kids far more than he needs to guarantee that the fish he sells to you will not die or be impacted by toxic conditions.

The experts here don't have any need to sell you stuff. As a community there is a strong belief in the humane aspects of the fishless cycle and it could be argued that as such there is an "agenda" here as well as a pressure to conform (the term fish killer is strongly emotive). It is hard to argue against the evidence that this approach is "best" and I for one an persuaded by it however I note the community agenda here to balance the commercial agenda of the IFS.

As such I personally tend to be persuaded by the experts who don't need to sell you stuff.

In terms of the fishless cycle being confusing I fear that you are "over thinking" it - something that I am certainly guilty of with the whole tank thing (which substrate, what plants, which fish, etc etc so many choices). I will be following the "add and wait" approach - chuck in enough ammonia to get it to 5ppm, raise the temp and cover the tank to eliminate light/algae. Test till it drops to 0ppm, add more to bring to 5 ppm etc. This is explained in the beginner's section - we printed it all off to read with a glass of wine etc. Much nicer than reading on the screen

I hope you manage to de-mystify the fishless cycle and can hold on for long enough to do it - see if there is anyone on here who can donate some mature media to you = that has dropped cycling to a couple of weeks for some people!

Good luck.

Miles

 

[anon02]

In reply to the O P, in the 6-8 weeks it will take to complete a fishless cycle you will have enough time to research and answer your own queries all in good time. ATM you are in danger of an information overload which can lead to confusion at this early stage. FYI the ammonia used in the fishless cycle is virtually the same as that produced by an established tank.

 

[moochy13]

i done a fish in cycle with my tank, which is only 140L, and managed it without losing any fish. due to circumstances i had to fish in cycle with 2 red eye tetra and a medium sized angel. all survived and are doing great, and so is my tank in general. its just a case of keeping on top of things and being very vigilant with your water testing and water changes. the bigger your tank, the more leeway you have before things go pearshaped.

and this is my point - you have a nice big 90G aquarium, and youre cycling with 3 little red eye tetras. for things to get even close to dangerous, youd have to be really lax with your water test and change routine. youre certainly in a better position than i was, and i managed to get through it with no problems. fishless cycling does remove the chance of losing a fish, but fish in is definately possible, and in a tank like yours with the fish youre using, perfectly achievable.

its all about putting the effort in while the tank is establishing.

 

[jmartin71]

i done a fish in cycle with my tank, which is only 140L, and managed it without losing any fish. due to circumstances i had to fish in cycle with 2 red eye tetra and a medium sized angel. all survived and are doing great, and so is my tank in general. its just a case of keeping on top of things and being very vigilant with your water testing and water changes. the bigger your tank, the more leeway you have before things go pearshaped.

and this is my point - you have a nice big 90G aquarium, and youre cycling with 3 little red eye tetras. for things to get even close to dangerous, youd have to be really lax with your water test and change routine. youre certainly in a better position than i was, and i managed to get through it with no problems. fishless cycling does remove the chance of losing a fish, but fish in is definately possible, and in a tank like yours with the fish youre using, perfectly achievable.

its all about putting the effort in while the tank is establishing.

Thanks for the comments!! Actually my three red eye tetras are in my 26gal. I have nothing in the 90gal yet that was the point of the thread. I want to do a few plants so I wanted to ask about what kind of plants what kind of fish, what are the stock options. For example I love angels, I also like African Cichlids but what can you put them with do these go together, can you put 2 different semi -aggressive to aggressive fish together since they have long flowing fins. Fish that are territorial with a 90 gallon is there enough room to go around, etc. That is what I am looking to find out helpful tips with communities of fish and good low light plants.

Any help would be great!!