Acceptable Nitrate Levels.

[Utar]

Well, okay, but I have 3-4" of inert pool filter sand in my 60g that I haven't touched in over 8 years - just add a root tab here and there for rooted plants
View attachment 123747

The aquasoil adventure is new to me, I have had only sand for years before and did the same thing with root tabs etc.
Are you running a co2 system in 60g. As for as I know the Walstad Method (which I am trying to do) doesn't use co2, but not really sure about that. Here is a picture of my 55g with the aquasoil mentioned.

 

[Guyb93]

My tank is pretty much always 20-40 ppm , I don’t see how you can have a full stocked tank and achieve lower than this without it being a full time job , I have few plants so have always patted myself on the back for keeping these numbers maybe wouldn’t be great if the tank is heavily planted , but I rarely test my water I hve to be honest just keep up with the water changes n ignore the results ahahah

 

[Essjay]

I think I'm one of the lucky ones. My tap water nitrate is between the 0 and 5 colours and my water quality report confirms it as 4 ppm. I tested nitrate a couple of weeks ago immediately before a water change and my main tank had a nitrate of zero. I tested it twice to make sure. This is a well stocked tank - but it also has the surface covered with floating plants. I can only assume that, having taken up all the ammonia, the plants then take up the tiny amount of nitrate in the tap water.

 

[AbbeysDad]

Are you running a co2 system in 60g.

Not currently. For a time I did experiment with DIY CO2 (sugar & yeast) and the plants did grow faster/better. After a time, since I really didn't need plants to grow faster/bigger/better, and the water/sugar/yeast mix was 'work', I just stopped and let the tank go natural with modest liquid ferts and the occasional root tab.

My tank is pretty much always 20-40 ppm , I don’t see how you can have a full stocked tank and achieve lower than this without it being a full time job

Fast growing floating plants use ammonia as their primary nitrogen source so the ammonia that they use is converted into plant tissue instead of nitrites, then nitrates by bacteria. The beauty of floating plants is that, in addition to the natural appearance, and the cover for fish, because of their proximity, they grow well under almost any light. This can make a huge difference in pollution reduction (including nitrates) for a small investment.

 

[seangee]

Fast growing floating plants use ammonia as their primary nitrogen source so the ammonia that they use is converted into plant tissue instead of nitrites, then nitrates by bacteria. The beauty of floating plants is that, in addition to the natural appearance, and the cover for fish, because of their proximity, they grow well under almost any light. This can make a huge difference in pollution reduction (including nitrates) for a small investment.

Which causes amusement at the way some doggedly regurgitate the old falsehood that more (filtration) is better. Why would you add more filtration than needed or a higher flow rate when all you are doing is removing what the plants need and increasing nitrate production. According to filter manufacturers, and sites like AqAdvisor, every one of my tanks is critically under filtered. Yet I can never detect ammonia, nitrites or nitrates.

By all means spend your money. But more than you need is just waste, and just enough is actually better for both plants and fish.

 

[AbbeysDad]

Which causes amusement at the way some doggedly regurgitate the old falsehood that more (filtration) is better. Why would you add more filtration than needed or a higher flow rate when all you are doing is removing what the plants need and increasing nitrate production.

Isn't it odd how many believe that more is better or that we need 4x - 10x GPH filter flow relative to tank size?! ... good filtration is about how well we filter water, not how much or how fast we push water through media. And then there's documentation that suggests that fast water flows somewhat reduce bacteria's efficiency to get their 'food'. But just like the myth (Myths vs. Truth) that BB only lives in the filter, us crusty old timers need to continue to fight for truth, justice, and the American way (okay, that was over the top - what can I say )

 

[mcordelia]

whoa I walked away from this thread for a few days and I missed a lot of good stuff!! super interesting stuff about the nitrate filters - just to clarify though, they would be aerobic instead of anaerobic bacteria if it's a course sponge and a drip through rate, right? The way the picture is painting itself in my head is that there is more air than water present in the sponge, and thus the slow drip through water will come into contact with areas of the sponge that are alternating between underwater/exposed to air, and thus you would be able to sustain aerobic bacteria... Or is the system itself in some kind of vaccuum? What am I missing here?

@AbbeysDad and @Utar , I like where your conversation about aquasoil/pfs is going. cool to see different viewpoints! I have a question - I ordered a black friday deal of 18 plants for the 20 gallon (which is um, still sitting in its box in my garage....), and I have spent all of thanksgiving weekend washing tube sand (I've done almost 140 lbs! 70 more to go!) [with a very active toddler, "all of the weekend" equates to "an hour here and there" This is why my aquarium projects take so bloody long lol]. So before the plants get here, I'm going to toss in some of the sand, and then presumably plant the plants when they arrive. My question is - I also ordered a 10-pack of flourish root tabs, do I put all of them in before I plant the plants? Do I need more root tabs? How many am I supposed to use and how frequently am I supposed to replenish them? Thanks!

 

[AbbeysDad]

Regarding the denitrate filter. think of live rock in SW. The water within deep recesses has little/no oxygen, so anoxic/anaerobic bacteria flourishes.
When water first enters the denitrate filter, it has O2 and aerobic bacterias that convert the ammonia and nitrite into nitrates. As the water slowly moves through the various sponge layers, there is some channeling and some areas become depleted of oxygen and anoxic/anaerobic facultative bacterias can flourish. (again, consider a large canister where water returned to the tank is merely 1 drop per second...so water is in that container a very long time!)
---
Regarding root tabs for heavy root feeders, I let the plants tell me when they need more ferts. Okay, they don't speak, but I can see. Bear in mind that I use modest liquid ferts that also permeates into the substrate. I have Jungle Val and crypts that just grow w/o root tabs. I do on ocassion put root tabs down by the Amazon Swords as they are heavy root feeders.

 

[Colin_T]

whoa I walked away from this thread for a few days and I missed a lot of good stuff!! super interesting stuff about the nitrate filters - just to clarify though, they would be aerobic instead of anaerobic bacteria if it's a course sponge and a drip through rate, right?

No. The slow flow rate through the denitrating filters is to create an anaerobic environment. The bacteria that break down nitrates cannot survive in oxygen rich environments and you need a very slow flow of water to make it anaerobic (lacking oxygen).

There is no air in the denitrating filter. It is a sealed unit like an external canister filter (Fluval or Eheim) that is completely full of water and has a very slow flow rate to eliminate oxygen.

 

[mcordelia]

Ok thanks both of you that makes sense. I was thinking it was an open environment drip through (like cold brewed coffee) rather than the volume being full of water. Thanks for the clarification! Very interesting concept.

Thanks thanks

 

[JWT]

I had fish in the 70s and 90s. I’d never heard of nitrates until last January. Most of the posters on here have forgotten more about fishkeeping than I’ll ever know.
On that basis I’ll go along with the majority opinion though agree it’s good to see the norm challenged every now and then.
I want my fishkeeping to be fun not forensic.

My mom is exactly like you she sees me buying all these UV lights and two different filters while actually three filters for a 55 gallon tank and heaters and CO2 for my plants and she's like son I had mollies and Guppies when you were a kid which would have been 70s and 80s and we never did all that we never change the water we put little corner filters in that had white cotton and charcoal and that was it and never had any problems I explained to her that we know now that the fish are healthier doing the maintenance and stuff but we do

 

[Fishiemang]

Be a water keeper. The fish will be fine.

Plant your tank. As there are bacteria that convert ammonia, there is also processes for nitrites/nitrates. The solution to nitrates is plants. Plant life uses this as food.

This is why I always tend to avoid most discussions in tank cycling, because it seems the focus is always on ammonia. It's called a "nitrogen cycle" for a reason. Ammonia is a byproduct of fish waste. Decay. Same as the others. There are bacteria that do all this conversion.in the tank, so a strict focus on ammonia is silly imo. But the solution to nitrates is plants. In nature, plants use this as food. In a well established planted tank, you should never really need to monitor your water params unless you notice an issue. Even then, the solution to excess is, like stated above, dilution. So, problem=water change. Params are one of them things that I use when water changes don't change the issue, like when I lost my severum and bala shark. Nothing helped. The water was good. No amount of changes helped. The only issue I could come up with is lack of plants. All my other tanks are heavily planted and they thrive. The tank without plants suffers fish loss, so I have started planting that tank. The problems have since abated.

Be a water keeper. The rest will fall into place. You'll drive yourself nuts testing water all the time...not.to mention the expense. A decent test kit is expensive. I bought a master test kit for $50 4 years ago...still have plenty. Maybe used it 6 times.

My $0.02 on this.....

 

[dprids]

A fish tank is like the human body. Complicated and simple. A lot of these general pearls of wisdom are measurable endpoints of a very complicated, multivariate, system. An human physiology analogy would be a blood test. In a blood test, they measure platelets, red blood cells, neutrophils, etc. If one of these values is off, let's say red blood cells, the solution is not "give them more red blood cells". If there is an abnormal level, the first step is to understand why there is an abnormal level. In major trauma, with massive blood loss, the answer is very simple, give them blood. In cancers, however, the answer may be a bone marrow transplant.

This is similar to the utility of nitrate levels in a fish tank. It is a parameter to measure the health of the tank as a whole. It's just a reflection of the tank. There are values nitrates, like in major blood loss trauma, where a water change is required. Some people may keep elevated nitrates for plants. Or very low levels for sensitive fish. But the take home is that it is really just a reflection of a compilation of complex variables.

 

[AbbeysDad]

Be a water keeper. The fish will be fine.

Nay, nay...be a water changer!
Plants use ammonia as their nitrogen source first as it requires far more energy to process nitrates...and only some do it well. But Ammonia used by plants never gets processed into nitrites and nitrates so that's good.
---
So Plants are great, especially fast growing floating plants...but unless you have a heavily planted tank, with very few small fish, you'll still need routine partial water changes to replace polluted water with fresh and replenish necessary minerals that plants and fish need.

 

[AbbeysDad]

My mom is exactly like you she sees me buying all these UV lights and two different filters while actually three filters for a 55 gallon tank and heaters and CO2 for my plants and she's like

My mom had a great tank like that when I was a kid too...and she had great fish.
But your Mom and it sounds like you may both be a little amiss.
Three filters on a 55g? I ought to get this engraved..."good filtration is about how well we filter water, not how much or how fast we push water through media"...and more filters is not the answer. Filters make water look clearer, but not any cleaner (see The Dirty Truth About Filters) as detritus decomposes in the filter and pollutes the water.