7 Weeks Into Fishless Cycle --- Results Inconclusive -- What To Do?

[eaglesaquarium]

Eagle - interestingly none of out stalls were accompanied by a pH crash... Just goes to show how varied the situation is

LG - hang in there, even my cycle ended

Miles

No doubt. The issue is that there are so many factors that are just not yet understood. One aspect that is understood is that the build-up of nitrates can cause the pH to drop and when the pH drops to 6.0 or lower the bacteria stop growing. There are still so many other variables at work that we just don't have a clue about, which is why I recommended adding a little fish food to get a build-up of some other minerals in the water, to be accessible to the bacteria.

 

[librarygirl]

I can try some fish food again, although I've added it a few times during this cycle and it hasn't seemed to help. I'll try the baking soda next. After that I'm out of ideas other than waiting, giving up, or changing the water source. As for the ADFs, after some research I think it might be better to give them their own tank, and I think a 20 gal is too big. The kind of fish they can be kept with are limited and I'm very partial to Celestial Pearl Danio which from what I can gather are probably too small and shy to be kept with ADFs. If I ever get this tank cycled, I figure I would use some media from it to cycle a 10 gal and keep some ADFs in there. Although who knows what'll happen now. Thanks

 

[XeroTolerance]

I agree with Eagle. If you add a little fish food it gives the bacteria the phosphates they need to grow if you don't have the correct water for them. I read this on a website but I dont know the link. When I say a little I mean take a flake brake it in half and pulverize a half and drop it in. That's for a 20 gallon tank.

Good Luck

 

[librarygirl]

I agree with Eagle. If you add a little fish food it gives the bacteria the phosphates they need to grow if you don't have the correct water for them. I read this on a website but I dont know the link. When I say a little I mean take a flake brake it in half and pulverize a half and drop it in. That's for a 20 gallon tank.

Good Luck

If this were going to work, how long would it take? I have added fish food a few different times and it didn't make a difference, but I can try it again.

 

[XeroTolerance]

Hmm. The article didn't say it just said it gives it a "boost". I'm guessing it would take just a few more weeks. I'm currently fishless cycling too. I just got a slight hint of Nitrites last night. Somewhere between 0-.25ppm. Just have faith and you'll get there.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

librarygirl,

Remember, the filter is what is getting cycled, not the tank. You could use the filter on a smaller tank and move the filter over to the bigger tank later. Ultimately, that is where the bacteria lives.

 

[librarygirl]

Sorry, I don't mean to be confusing! I only have one tank, just the 20 gal. If I already had a cycled tank I wouldn't be having issues LOL I got the seeded filter and seeded filter sponges donated from some friends (they don't live near me though; they heard of my problem cycling and sent me the media).

Eagle - you said your cycle took 100 days. How long did it take for you to convert a good amount of ammonia in 1 day and when/if did you start seeing nitrItes? I'm just concerned b/c I've NEVER seen nitrites (not even the month I had fish in the old tank) and ammonia is only dropping .5 per 24 hours. I still suspect my water, although I'm not sure what could be in it or lacking from it that would make this go so slowly.

 

[XeroTolerance]

Just hang in there. Today I got my first Nitrite reading . Its barely visible but you can clearly see its not sky blue anymore. It took me 4 weeks though because I put my two mystery snails in there for about two weeks than I took them out to add ammonia.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Sorry, I don't mean to be confusing! I only have one tank, just the 20 gal. If I already had a cycled tank I wouldn't be having issues LOL I got the seeded filter and seeded filter sponges donated from some friends (they don't live near me though; they heard of my problem cycling and sent me the media).

Eagle - you said your cycle took 100 days. How long did it take for you to convert a good amount of ammonia in 1 day and when/if did you start seeing nitrItes? I'm just concerned b/c I've NEVER seen nitrites (not even the month I had fish in the old tank) and ammonia is only dropping .5 per 24 hours. I still suspect my water, although I'm not sure what could be in it or lacking from it that would make this go so slowly.

Yes, I know that you currently only have one tank, but you were thinking of having another for ADFs. What I was suggesting was that when (if) you get the second tank, you could still use the waste from the ADFs to cycle the filter for the larger tank. (Although, ADFs prefer a little calmer water, so perhaps that really isn't the best idea. Overfiltering a small tank would probably create far more current than the ADFs would prefer. Although, if you could somehow lower the flow rate, it could work fabulously. And then you could actually enjoy keeping a pet while you cycle the filter.)


Also, my cycle did not last 100 days. I was referencing Miles_hot's cycle. Linked here. Looking at his log, he didn't report getting any nitrite reading until about Day 50 - and he added a small amount of seeded media around day 38 or so, based on his log.


My cycle went far easier. I got about a good month into it. Then I added a fully cycled filter cartridge and a few rescued fish. Then I added a few more fish and checked levels. I only ever had an ammonia reading once and once I had a nitrite reading. Both readings were at 0.25ppm, and a quick water change dealt with it both times. Since then, I haven't had a single issue and I have been able to add a few more fish easily without even a small bump in levels. I currently am up to the stocking that you see in my sig - 7 rasboras, 5 danios, and 11 panda cories. I'll probably increase the danio numbers again soon - I think 9 of them would be ideal, and the rasboras will probably be bumped to 9 as well. Then, I will stop stocking it for about 6 months. If all survive as I hope (expect?), then I will look to add some more sensitive fish - either some apistogrammas or some dwarf rainbowfish.

 

[librarygirl]

Sorry, I don't mean to be confusing! I only have one tank, just the 20 gal. If I already had a cycled tank I wouldn't be having issues LOL I got the seeded filter and seeded filter sponges donated from some friends (they don't live near me though; they heard of my problem cycling and sent me the media).

Eagle - you said your cycle took 100 days. How long did it take for you to convert a good amount of ammonia in 1 day and when/if did you start seeing nitrItes? I'm just concerned b/c I've NEVER seen nitrites (not even the month I had fish in the old tank) and ammonia is only dropping .5 per 24 hours. I still suspect my water, although I'm not sure what could be in it or lacking from it that would make this go so slowly.

Yes, I know that you currently only have one tank, but you were thinking of having another for ADFs. What I was suggesting was that when (if) you get the second tank, you could still use the waste from the ADFs to cycle the filter for the larger tank. (Although, ADFs prefer a little calmer water, so perhaps that really isn't the best idea. Overfiltering a small tank would probably create far more current than the ADFs would prefer. Although, if you could somehow lower the flow rate, it could work fabulously. And then you could actually enjoy keeping a pet while you cycle the filter.)


Also, my cycle did not last 100 days. I was referencing Miles_hot's cycle. Linked here. Looking at his log, he didn't report getting any nitrite reading until about Day 50 - and he added a small amount of seeded media around day 38 or so, based on his log.


My cycle went far easier. I got about a good month into it. Then I added a fully cycled filter cartridge and a few rescued fish. Then I added a few more fish and checked levels. I only ever had an ammonia reading once and once I had a nitrite reading. Both readings were at 0.25ppm, and a quick water change dealt with it both times. Since then, I haven't had a single issue and I have been able to add a few more fish easily without even a small bump in levels. I currently am up to the stocking that you see in my sig - 7 rasboras, 5 danios, and 11 panda cories. I'll probably increase the danio numbers again soon - I think 9 of them would be ideal, and the rasboras will probably be bumped to 9 as well. Then, I will stop stocking it for about 6 months. If all survive as I hope (expect?), then I will look to add some more sensitive fish - either some apistogrammas or some dwarf rainbowfish.

Ah, I get it now, sorry, must have misread. I guess I could try that, I just dont' know at this point. I don't want to risk something's life if there's something wrong with my water, though. I tested tonight again: my nitrAtes totally disappeared and my PH crashed to 6. I have no idea what's going on, my PH is usually stable at 7.4. I did add some safe start on Saturday b/c I was desperate, but not sure if that would cause a crash. My ammonia seems to have fallen from about 2 last night to 1 tonight, but I had nitrates last night and now I have none. I don't know what happened or what to do. I put some crushed argonite in there in a mesh bag (don't have a new box of baking soda on hand at the moment) and I"ll do a pwc to try to raise the PH and restore buffers and I'll try adding some fish food. I'm just at a loss and very very VERY frustrated. Today is day 43 for this tank (which maybe in the scheme of things isn't a lot, but if you add the 6 or so weeks I tried cycling my old tank and failed at that one too, well, it's getting ridiculous). Thanks again.

 

[Miles_hot]

do a massive water change - syphon it all out, refill (adding a full dose of de-chlorinator), run the pump for 10 mins to flush out all the old water and then do another complete change. This will reset the water to your tap characteristics. Re-dose to 4ppm. I think you'll see a difference when the temp comes up (the first 4-6 hours are dead time waiting for the water to fully come up to temp). We got good at water changes

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Well, the issue with the nitrate test is that it is the hardest one to get an accurate reading from. I wouldn't put too much stock in the nitrate reading for today. It's probably a mistake. On the other hand, the pH crash is actually a good sign. That means that nitrates are building up and that the ammonia is being processed. (the negative is that the cycle will stall until you do a water change, and that your buffering capacity has been reached.)


You need to do a 100% water change as Miles pointed out. You do not need to flush out the pump however. The amount of nitrate left behind won't be a big deal, it will just raise your water bill. You will however want to add baking soda to your water though to increase your buffering capacity and pH. The baking soda doesn't need to be brand new, just not the stuff that you keep in the fridge. The one you have up in the pantry cupboard will do nicely. Again, you aren't going to use much. At 20 gallons, about 4 tbsp should be all that you need. If the pH doesn't go up to 8.0 - 8.4, then add some more. This will help to protect you from another future pH crash, which will slow your cycling period down again.


As far as the 43 days goes, you can't count the previous time (even though you still feel it). You started over from scratch, so that doesn't play a role in this cycle. If you look at the linked cycle log from Miles_hot's experience, you will see that you aren't too far off from what he went through. That might be an encouragement to you. Keep the temp at 84F, the pH up to about 8.4 and the water level slightly lower to keep the oxygen level as high as possible (if the water splashes into the tank from the filter this will be enough - maybe an inch below the level of the output would be plenty). All these factors will help to speed the process up as much as possible. Continue your patience, things actually seem to be moving a bit now. Best wishes with this, you might be surprised to find yourself into phase two before you know it. It can happen that you tick over into phase two or even three without a noticeable nitrite spike. But, if you have NEVER gotten a reading from the nitrite test, then I would suggest that you verify that the test works. First, take a sample of the crashed water before you empty it all out. Have this tested at a LFS (it should be free) for nitrite - they will probably test for ammonia and pH as well. If this test doesn't show any nitrites, then your test kit is probably fine. But, if it shows nitrite, you will want to double check your testing procedures. (Are you waiting the full 5 minutes for the reading? Are you shaking the bottle up before dosing? Do you have access to any nitrite that you could verify a reading from with that test kit that you are getting SOMETHING. Does the bottom of the tube turn purple immediately when you drop in the drops and then go to a greyish color? Are you certain that you are following all the directions correctly?)

I think you will be surprised to see some more movement in your cycle soon. Then, it is just a waiting game to see when it finally finishes, but you do have movement. Patience (I know its been a while already) is the name of the game here.

 

[nehpets81]

Hmm.. this one does sound like a really frustrating one. You've probably mentioned all this before but what kind of filter do you have, what is the flow rate like on the filter, and what kind of tank? Are you using the API liquid tests?

I had a total nightmare of fishless cycle. After about 130-140 days ( I actually stopped recording it acurately because I was getting so disheartened) my Ammonia was processing in 12 hours and the resulting Nitrite between 12 and 24 hours (most days). It was going along like this for a week or so and to be honest, I just decided to add some fish (not a full stocking), keeping dilligent about the nitrite levels as it had been many months since I purchased my tank any my enthusuasm, and that of my gf for fishkeeping (actually tank keeping as it was in our case) had completely disappeared. I should also point out that this was with the aid of some seeded filter media.

However, I thought I would share some of my observations and problems:

1. Make sure you look at your test result colours in natural light - I managed to starve and kill my ammonia processing bacteria by thinking I saw a green tint in the Ammonia test when in fact there was none.

2. After we added the seeded media, we found it much more efficient at processing Nitrite than Ammonia, we saw many zero Nitrite readings due to this.

3. Our bacteria became much less efficient even when the PH dropped to relatively high levels - even a drop to about 7.2-7.4 resulted in a slow down of the processing, and towards the end I was adding a lot of Bicarb.

4. When the cycle stalled completely, a huge water change usually kick started it again but this occured only about a week after the water change.

5. Someone mentioned when I did my cycle that with the API test, an "off the scale" nitrite reading can look very similar to a zero reading.

6. I came to the conclusion that our water was quite heavily treated and did not contain many natural bacteria.

With regards to your predicament, the fact you are seeing Ammonia reducing and no Nitrite does seem very strange? Could something be removing the Ammonia that is not the bactetia? If the Ammonia is present as Ammonium, would a different bacteria handle this and would it result in Nitrite? I'm not sure, hopefully someone is tho!

It may sound like a dumb question, but you are dechlorinating with the right ammount of dechlorinator?( I think Chloroamine needs a lot more than just chlorine)

The others have given some great advice as to what you could do, for what it's worth I would:

1. Double check that Nitrite test
2. Do a large water change, erring on the side over over dechlorinating than under
3. Up your PH to over 8
4. Dose your Ammonia up to 4-5ppm
5. As tempting as it may be try not to add anything that will claim to chemically lock away Ammonia or remove it as it may skew the results.

I really hope things get on track for you.

 

[Miles_hot]

130 days? #41####, I was hoping to be the longest - at least then I'd have something to bolster me against all these lucky souls who cycle in a few weeks

 

[librarygirl]

Thanks for trying to help. My replies in blue.

Hmm.. this one does sound like a really frustrating one. You've probably mentioned all this before but:

what kind of filter do you have,
I have three filters. I started with two new ones, an AquaClear 20 HOB (with sponge and biomax) and an internal Fluval U2 (with sponges and biomax). About 3-4 weeks ago I was given an internal mag sponge filter (the kind you attach to an air pump) from an established tank to try to seed mine, so that is in there as well.

what is the flow rate like on the filter,
I have no idea off-hand, I'd have to look them up or check the boxes when I get home, but with all of them combined I would think it would be more than enough! lol

and what kind of tank?
standard 20 gallon glass aquarium, purchased new at the beginning of this cycle and rinsed out with hot tap water prior to using

Are you using the API liquid tests?
yes

I had a total nightmare of fishless cycle. After about 130-140 days ( I actually stopped recording it acurately because I was getting so disheartened) my Ammonia was processing in 12 hours and the resulting Nitrite between 12 and 24 hours (most days). It was going along like this for a week or so and to be honest, I just decided to add some fish (not a full stocking), keeping dilligent about the nitrite levels as it had been many months since I purchased my tank any my enthusuasm, and that of my gf for fishkeeping (actually tank keeping as it was in our case) had completely disappeared. I should also point out that this was with the aid of some seeded filter media.'

Wow, 130 days! lol That's crazy. The thing is I'm on day 52 now I think (my log is at home) and I'm only processing .5 of ammonia every night and I never had nitrites. Until I added the seeded sponge filter, ammonia took 4-7 days to drop enough to where I needed to redose. With the sponge filter it started dropping .5 per night and I started seeing nitrAtes, but it's been over 3 weeks now since adding the media and I would think ammonia should be processing faster. Also two weeks ago I added two seeded sponge pads from an established tank; I put one in the Fluval and one in the AquaClear. It hasn't seemed to help though b/c still no nitrites and ammonia hasn't dropped any faster, so I"m very puzzled.

However, I thought I would share some of my observations and problems:

1. Make sure you look at your test result colours in natural light - I managed to starve and kill my ammonia processing bacteria by thinking I saw a green tint in the Ammonia test when in fact there was none.
Yep I had this problem initially too. But I then tested distilled water so now I know what true zero looks like and from dosing the ammonia I also know what 0.25+ looks like, so i can tell the difference now. And unfortunately I know I've never had 0 ammonia (unless I wait 4-5 days for it to go down after I redose. Usually I dose to 2, then the next night it'll be 1.5, then the next night .1, then the next night .5, then the next night .25 (shouldn't it be zero here? it wasn't though), then I usually redose at this point, so I've never let it get to true zero, but it hasn't done it on it's own overnight either.

2. After we added the seeded media, we found it much more efficient at processing Nitrite than Ammonia, we saw many zero Nitrite readings due to this.
Tried adding seeded media twice (reply above). Initally it seemed to help, but it's still processing the same amount of ammonia as it was, even after adding MORE media, so I"m not sure what's happening.

3. Our bacteria became much less efficient even when the PH dropped to relatively high levels - even a drop to about 7.2-7.4 resulted in a slow down of the processing, and towards the end I was adding a lot of Bicarb.
My PH is usually steady at 7.4 or so (the ph test is dark blue, the high range test matches 7.4). Two nights ago though I came home to a PH crash of 6, still not sure what happened. I did a large pwc and the PH has been OK since then. I've also added a mesh bag of crushed coral to the tank which is said to buffer PH too (I dont' have any clean baking soda on hand, the only boxes I have are already in the fridge and freezer).

My tap water is also very soft --- GH 3, KH 2 --- so i'm wondering if that's playing a role here as well....?

4. When the cycle stalled completely, a huge water change usually kick started it again but this occured only about a week after the water change.
I've changed water a few times during this cycle, some for the PH and I forget why the other times, but it didn't seem to kickstart anything.

5. Someone mentioned when I did my cycle that with the API test, an "off the scale" nitrite reading can look very similar to a zero reading.
Nope, mine is the bright sky blue of zero. It doesn't turn dark or purple when I put the drops in, it doesn't turn lavendar or grey or brown. It's light blue, always, and matches the 0 color on the card perfectly.

6. I came to the conclusion that our water was quite heavily treated and did not contain many natural bacteria.

I'm wondering if mine is similar.

With regards to your predicament, the fact you are seeing Ammonia reducing and no Nitrite does seem very strange? Could something be removing the Ammonia that is not the bactetia? If the Ammonia is present as Ammonium, would a different bacteria handle this and would it result in Nitrite? I'm not sure, hopefully someone is tho!

It may sound like a dumb question, but you are dechlorinating with the right ammount of dechlorinator?( I think Chloroamine needs a lot more than just chlorine)

yYs I use Prime; it says to use a capful for 55 gals, mine is 20 and I still use a capful just to be sure it's enough.. I'm actually wondering if it's the Prime....I've read a few places not to use Prime in a fishless cycle b/c the binding of the ammonia can stall things. I've also read that others have fishless cycled fine using Prime. I'm wondering if somehow the Prime and/or something in or not in my water is hindering this cycle. Any thoughts on changing the dechlorinator? And/or my water source?

The others have given some great advice as to what you could do, for what it's worth I would:

1. Double check that Nitrite test
2. Do a large water change, erring on the side over over dechlorinating than under
3. Up your PH to over 8
4. Dose your Ammonia up to 4-5ppm
5. As tempting as it may be try not to add anything that will claim to chemically lock away Ammonia or remove it as it may skew the results.

I really hope things get on track for you. Thank you I hope so too!