7 Weeks Into Fishless Cycle --- Results Inconclusive -- What To Do?

[librarygirl]

Hi everyone,

Tomorrow will be 7 weeks into my 2nd attempt at fishless cycling. Even after adding a seeded sponge filter from an established tank 3 weeks ago and 2 filter sponges that were running off an established tank for two weeks the other day, my ammonia is only dropping .5 per night consistently (I'll dose it to 2, the next night it will be 1.5, the next night 1, the next night .5, the next night 0-0.25, then I"ll redose and it repeats). I've never had nitrites and nitrates are currently 20-30. My water is soft, GH is 3 and KH is 2. I added a mesh bag of crushed coral a few days ago to see if that would help but it's either too soon or it hasn't helped at all.

I'm not what to do at this point....Should I just add a few fish and see what happens? I'm definitely diligent enough to test the water every day and do a pwc as needed, but I'm not sure I want to expose fish to a potential ammonia bath. I'd hate to give up, but I don't know what else to do at this point. Any advice?

 

[KkAaNnEe]

Im not the best expert at fishless cycling and its been a while since I did mine, but it may be an idea to remove the mature media and just start again, my fishless cycle took 4 weeks when i did it with no mature media, it sounds like your results could be confused.

At least with no mature media, you know you will get certain levels of ammonia and you might see some real progress

Obviousl if im wrong someone else please jump in and help as I know how frustrating waiting can be

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Librarygirl,


I understand your concern. But, even as crazy as it sounds, 7 weeks isn't an unreasonable amount of time for a cycle. Miles just went through a cycle that took about 100 days, seven weeks is only HALF of that time. Ultimately, you know what my suggestion is regarding the cycle if it gets too long - add the ADFs and enjoy some pets that you intend to keep. The ADFs will be just fine in the tank without the cycled filter. They do not require a filter! So, having a partially cycled filter in the tank won't be an issue, you will just need to be sure to be good about large water changes weekly or slightly smaller ones biweekly. I understand your concern about not wanting to introduce an animal to an unsafe environment, especially given your recent fish-in cycle experience, but truthfully - there is no risk to the frogs!


So my advice would be to continue doing what you are doing and try to stay patient. OR get the ADFs and continue to remain patient in waiting for the filter to cycle before considering getting fish again. It will cycle eventually. It is just a question of when, not if.

 

[Miles_hot]

I certainly wouldn't remove the Mature Media.

What are your Nitrate readings? We found it stupidly easy to end up too high and then for the thing to stall. I assume you're checking all the pH etc and that is still up in the 7.6 - 8.2 range? If not add some bicarb

Stick with it - just get into a routine with it and don't expect too much. Our cycle has just finished (we're in the qualifying week) - must update log! And we're about to go on a little holiday so still no fish!!!

Your readings are going down, this is good. Your still cycling. Just because some get stupidly lucky means that some of us need to have stupidly long cycles otherwise the average wouldn't be as long as it is Welcome to the tail of the curve!!!

Miles

 

[Aqua Tom]

Dont loose faith, my cycle lasted 9 weeks, & it all came together in the last week.


Tom

 

[librarygirl]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to wait it out a bit more. This is my 2nd attempt at a fishless cycle I should add; the first attempt started with fish (before I knew about cycling) after a month they all died overnight (assuming PH shock from a large pwc). Then on that same tank I started a fishless cycle. After 4 weeks of the fishless cycle (not counting the month with fish-in) and ammonia not dropping AT ALL and some other odd issues (weird odor, foam, etc) I figure maybe something inadvertently got into the tank to contaminate it. I broke it down, returned it, threw away everything in the tank and started with a whole new setup, a 20 gal glass which is where I am now. So it's been 7 weeks on this cycle so far. Until I added the seeded media my ammonia wasn't dropping much at all, took about a week to 10 days to drop to .5 from 2. So at least with the media it's dropping .5 per night. My PH has been steady at 7.3-7.6.

I do have nitrates, which is what's perplexing. They seem to be rising every few days, but not overly high, about 20-30 right now, so I don't think they're stalling anything. I've never had nitrites (not even in the first tank) which is another thing that's weird.

I'm going to stick it out a few more weeks and see what happens.

Thanks!

 

[eaglesaquarium]

1 ppm ammonia will convert to 3.6ppm nitrates (after processing to 2.7ppm). So, the fact that your ammonia is dropping and nitrite isn't rising should mean that nitrates are rising.


This isn't a "stall" situation, this is a slow start. For whatever reason your A-bacs seem very slow to multiply. Normally under ideal conditions they will double in number roughly every 24 hours. Obviously, your cycle is not ideal conditions for them. Generally, the pH should be 8.0-8.4 and the temp should be around 84F (29-30C). There are other factors as well, but they are much more difficult to control (and probably are much less known by anyone). There is probably a deficiency of something in your water that the bacteria don't have for their purposes.


I would suggest that if you are going to keep waiting - add baking soda to raise your pH, raise your temp (this should be easy at this time of the year) and add a pinch of fish food. The fish food will add some more nutrients to your water than just dosing with ammonia. Don't change anything else. Keep going as you are - the small addition of fish food will add a little additional ammonia, but not much, but the other stuff might be enough to help the bacs along. If things start to move, add another pinch of fish food once a week to keep the available other minerals in the water so the bacteria can use them to build their biofilms.

Best wishes.

 

[KezJona]

This was a good threat to read, however, I have heard about the fishless cycle stalling? When do you know your readings are TOO high for Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates?

In the fishless cycling guide I heard that the Nitrites spike as do the Nitrates, so when do you know it's going to stall?

Kez

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The stall is usually accompanied by a massive drop in pH... down to 6.0 or lower. The drop in pH is usually because of REALLY high nitrates. Nitrite spikes are relative. If you have a fairly high "n-bac" (nitrite to nitrate processing bacteria) population, the nitrite levels will not get that high. And, in this case, since librarygirl added a cycled filter sponge, it is possible that the n-bac colony is sufficient to deal with all that is produced by the "a-bacs" (ammonia to nitrite processing bacteria). It seems that the problem librarygirl is having is in regards to the a-bacs, and that is why the filter is not cycling as fast as others. Her nitrate levels are not the concern here, and that is usually what causes the pH to drop and the cycle to stall. Librarygirl's cycle is not "stalled" it is just slow.

 

[librarygirl]

1 ppm ammonia will convert to 3.6ppm nitrates (after processing to 2.7ppm). So, the fact that your ammonia is dropping and nitrite isn't rising should mean that nitrates are rising.


This isn't a "stall" situation, this is a slow start. For whatever reason your A-bacs seem very slow to multiply. Normally under ideal conditions they will double in number roughly every 24 hours. Obviously, your cycle is not ideal conditions for them. Generally, the pH should be 8.0-8.4 and the temp should be around 84F (29-30C). There are other factors as well, but they are much more difficult to control (and probably are much less known by anyone). There is probably a deficiency of something in your water that the bacteria don't have for their purposes.


I would suggest that if you are going to keep waiting - add baking soda to raise your pH, raise your temp (this should be easy at this time of the year) and add a pinch of fish food. The fish food will add some more nutrients to your water than just dosing with ammonia. Don't change anything else. Keep going as you are - the small addition of fish food will add a little additional ammonia, but not much, but the other stuff might be enough to help the bacs along. If things start to move, add another pinch of fish food once a week to keep the available other minerals in the water so the bacteria can use them to build their biofilms.

Best wishes.

Thanks again Eagle. I think it's something in my water, or lacking in the water, that's stalling these cycles. I'm just not sure whether to continue and hope it cycles or try a different water source. The tank temp is 82-84 F (I have the heater set to 84, but the internal mercury thermometer reads about 82, probably b/c the air conditioner is almost always on in that room and the heater is going a lot too, so maybe it can't quite keep the temp up, but 82 should be ok, I would think). I did add fish food 2-3 times during this cycle, and it didn't seem to help any at all. I even added a mesh bag of crushed coral (figured it would do the same as the bicarb) but my PH never went up and the cycle didn't progress, unless I didn't put enough in. I also have an air stone and lot of surface agitation from the 3 filters. I also tried a few pwc here and there in case the buffers needed restoring, etc, but no luck there either. I'm just at a loss as to why the nitrates are rising but ammonia isn't dropping faster. I think I've tried everything....except changing the water supply itself, but I'm not sure I really want to invest that far into it. Maybe I'll try the actual baking soda as that's the only thing I haven't tried yet. I'm just getting frustrated. Thank you for your help.

 

[Geoff-]

I don't think your cycles are stalling, fact is you are dosing with ammonia and it's being converted to nitrates. pH is fine, soft water doesn't really matter, and your temperature is good.

The only thing that's possibly a problem is that the conversion rate is low, but if you are using sponge filters then the seeded one is the only one doing any work at the moment. The other ones will take quite a while to build up bacteria. In a canister filter or similar you can put the seeded media at the water inlet side and the water flow will help bacteria to populate downstream media - you don't have that benefit with sponge filters as they are independent.

I would add a couple of small fish, and monitor for ammonia problems. Remember that when you have fish in your tank the sole cause of ammonia is fish food. The more you feed the more ammonia you end up with (via the fish), it's as simple as that. So feed sparingly at first.

You can also consider adding a beneficial bacteria supplement to the new sponge filters (ie not the seeded one, the others). Pull the sponges out of the water and pour the bacterial supplement directly onto the sponge, work it through a bit and then re-install. Should help kick-start things. I used Seachem Stability and it seemed to work for me but everyone has their own favourite.

I know Eagles is a lot more knowledgeable than me - and high pH may help fishless cycling - but I would NOT be trying to raise the pH with fish in there. Ammonia is a much much bigger problem in alkaline water, in acidic water it is locked away as ammonium which is much less harmful to fish. So a slightly acid pH (6.5) will lessen the effect of ammonia spikes on your fish, should they happen. Another reason not to modify your water parameters with crushed coral or bicarb is if you have to do a big water change due to ammonia, you want your tank water to be as close to your tap water as possible so the only thing you have to do is temperature match + dechlor.

I reckon you'll be OK - just add a couple of fish take it slow and see what happens.

 

[librarygirl]

I don't think your cycles are stalling, fact is you are dosing with ammonia and it's being converted to nitrates. pH is fine, soft water doesn't really matter, and your temperature is good.

The only thing that's possibly a problem is that the conversion rate is low, but if you are using sponge filters then the seeded one is the only one doing any work at the moment. The other ones will take quite a while to build up bacteria. In a canister filter or similar you can put the seeded media at the water inlet side and the water flow will help bacteria to populate downstream media - you don't have that benefit with sponge filters as they are independent.

I would add a couple of small fish, and monitor for ammonia problems. Remember that when you have fish in your tank the sole cause of ammonia is fish food. The more you feed the more ammonia you end up with (via the fish), it's as simple as that. So feed sparingly at first.

You can also consider adding a beneficial bacteria supplement to the new sponge filters (ie not the seeded one, the others). Pull the sponges out of the water and pour the bacterial supplement directly onto the sponge, work it through a bit and then re-install. Should help kick-start things. I used Seachem Stability and it seemed to work for me but everyone has their own favourite.

I know Eagles is a lot more knowledgeable than me - and high pH may help fishless cycling - but I would NOT be trying to raise the pH with fish in there. Ammonia is a much much bigger problem in alkaline water, in acidic water it is locked away as ammonium which is much less harmful to fish. So a slightly acid pH (6.5) will lessen the effect of ammonia spikes on your fish, should they happen. Another reason not to modify your water parameters with crushed coral or bicarb is if you have to do a big water change due to ammonia, you want your tank water to be as close to your tap water as possible so the only thing you have to do is temperature match + dechlor.

I reckon you'll be OK - just add a couple of fish take it slow and see what happens.

Thanks. I only have 1 sponge filter inside the tank, it was a seeded one I added a few weeks ago to try to get things moving. The other two filters are an internal Fluval U2 and an AquaClear 20 HOB. I was given 2 seeded sponge filter pads and I put one in each of the filters a week ago. I did also try adding a bottle of Safe Start just to see if it did anything, but I guess it hasn't. I'll try to plod along a bit longer and then I'll either have to try adding a few fish or give up all together. Thanks again.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The crushed coral raises pH, but it does it very slowly. Adding baking soda will raise it almost immediately (which is why Geoff is saying that you wouldn't want to add it with fish in the tank). But since there are no fish, just add a few teaspoons of baking soda, it can't hurt anything. Usually the recommendation is to add about 1 tsp per liter, so about 4 tsp per U.S. gallon. Give it about a half an hour to an hour to mix thoroughly and test. The pH should rise nicely. If it doesn't go to 8.0-8.4, add a little more. Honestly, I think that you will be fine eventually, it will just take a little extra time for you. I know it is hard to wait, but don't give up the dream of keeping fish because of it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, since you are looking into ADFs anyway, they might be a useful solution to both your empty tank and your cycling issue. 6 months with an ADF or two in that tank, with the filter and I'm sure it will be fully cycled for fish. (And, as I've mentioned to you before, the ADFs will be just fine. They don't get their oxygen from the water, so having ammonia or nitrite isn't a concern for them. They just need water changes, and can be kept without any filtration whatsoever quite successfully.)

 

[Geoff-]

Don't give up add some fish!

 

[Miles_hot]

Eagle - interestingly none of out stalls were accompanied by a pH crash... Just goes to show how varied the situation is

LG - hang in there, even my cycle ended

Miles