4.0 Ammonia

[metulburr]

I am doing a fish-in cycle with too many fish in the tank than you are suppose to. Its a 30 gallon tank.  I have been doing 30% water changes every 2 days. 
 
I just bought ammonia tests. And i checked the water before doing a water change, and the ammonia is at level 4.0. 
 
Should i being doing more water changes to relieve the ammonia? How much is too much for water changes? Can you over do water changes in 30% amounts to hurt any new beneficial bacteria growing?
 
EDIT:
I tested the tap water, and it read at 0.5 ammonia 

 

[StevenF]

You need to cycle out MOST (70%) of the water EVERY day.  Ammonia levels that high will kill fish.  Over doing water changes will not kill bacteria.  High levels of ammonia however can kill bacteria. 

 

[hudsona85]

Agreed.

 

[TallTree01]

4 ppm is way to high for fish. Get it below 1ppm with water changes. Make sure the temperature remains stable.

 

[metulburr]

Thank you for the info. That defines it real well. 

 

[Ch4rlie]

Am surprised if fish are still around at 4ppm ammonia.
 
And tap water with 0.5ppm ammonia?
Its very unsual to have ammonia in tap water as most water treatments ensures there is no ammonia in drinking water as this will have negative affects on human body, especially in very young or eldery folks.
 
Can I ask what kind of test kit you are using?
The paper strip dip kit type tends to be unreliable and can give innaccurate readings.

 

[DrRob]

Soft, acid water, no nitrites yet, it's survivable but far from ideal.
 
However, once the first stage of the cycle gets going those nitrites will shoot up and it's game over. As has been said above, big water changes. Even if your tap water was 0 then the 30% change would only drop you to 2.8. A 70% water change would still leave you with 1.2, but it's a lot better.
 
From a level of 4 for fish in I'd be tempted to drain to the lowest level you can, refill and repeat. You want the levels properly low, and to keep them there.

And tap water with 0.5ppm ammonia?
Its very unsual to have ammonia in tap water as most water treatments ensures there is no ammonia in drinking water as this will have negative affects on human body, especially in very young or eldery folks.

 
Sadly it's not as uncommon as you think, and increasingly common as the chloramines break down slightly in the water supply on the way to you. Lack of bugs is far more important for safe water than what is, to a human, a tiny amount of ammonia.

 

[metulburr]

I just did a 70% water change. Retested after about 20 minutes of circulation by the filters. It now reads .35ppm . I am not sure how its lower than the tap water now, but i dont want to retest the tap water as the tests are expensive. 
 
Its a little over a week into the cycle. So i am expecting 2 more weeks of constant water changes until the nitrites pick up? I guess i have to pick up more start right to treat the massive amount of water ill be putting in. 
 
Im curious to know what the ammonia levels will be tomorrow now. 
 
I do have the plastic dip kind. I looked for the liquid kinds, but i couldnt find them. The paper kind was 25 for 12 bucks, and i thought that was quite expensive due to the number of time you test the water, so often. IT also wouldnt surprise me if there is something in the water there should not be. It is city water of Elmira NY, not a lot of money. 

 

[metulburr]

I went to my LFS to ask for his old filters and he gave me a free promotional bottle of startsmart complete freshwater. He said to put 1 ounce in now, and put the other ounce in a week from now. I forgot to ask him about water changes with this product.
 
Should you NOT to do water changes with this. It would seem like you are removing the product thus not allowing the bacteria to grow "from the prodouct"?
 
Also what are your guys opinions of this product?

 

[DrRob]

Throw it in, by all means, but keep doing the water changes. Just throw it in after a water change, not before. Bacteria can multiply ridiculously quickly given the right conditions, so once they get into the filter media they'll do just fine.
 
A good traditional starter test kit is the API master kit, available from places like Amazon for a grand sum of $22, and should last you a good length of time. It's also far more accurate than the dip type.
 
The other consideration is that some dechlorinators can mess with ammonia test kits, particularly the better ones. They can bind the ammonia, which helps to make it less toxic, but also causes some kits to misread. Given that the ideal is pretty much zero it's not generally too important a problem in an established tank, but can cause a few odd readings in a cycling tank.

 

[metulburr]

thanks DrRob

 

[fatheadminnow]

Sorry to hear you are in a fish-in cycle.  They are not fun and require a lot of work.
 
First, off I would get a better (liquid) test kit.  Strip test kits are inaccurate as you already found out.  I always recommend the API Freshwater Master Test Kit.
 
Also, any bottle of... whatever.. that states it helps starting a tank or that it instantly cycles the tank; is a joke.  You can use it but it's not going to do anything.  There used to be a great product called "BIO SPIRA" that actually had autotrophic bacteria in it.  It was kept refrigerated because of this and it worked pretty well.  I can speak of this from experience.  The people at your LFS are selling these items to get money.  That is it.
 
Ammonia at or above .25ppm can cause permanent gill damage and kill the fish.  Nitrite at or above .25ppm can cause permanent nerve damage and kill the fish.
 
It is very important to keep both ammonia and nitrite at or below .25ppm.  This will most likely be impossible while in a fish-in cycle but you should try your best.  You're probably going to be looking at doing multiple, large, water changes every day for a few weeks. 
 
To answer some of your questions:  Doing water changes will not hinder the growth of beneficial bacteria.  This bacteria (autotrophic bacteria) are very small and colonize on media where there is abutment current flow (your filter).  Just make sure every time you put water in the tank that you have added water conditioner to it.  

 

[Ch4rlie]

Also, any bottle of... whatever.. that states it helps starting a tank or that it instantly cycles the tank; is a joke.  You can use it but it's not going to do anything.  There used to be a great product called "BIO SPIRA" that actually had autotrophic bacteria in it.  It was kept refrigerated because of this and it worked pretty well.  I can speak of this from experience.  The people at your LFS are selling these items to get money.  That is it.

 
Not a statement I wholly agree with to be honest.
 
I do agree that a lot of these bacteria starters ARE pretty much useless but won't do much harm anyway and have to say its more of a marketing gimmick to get profits.
 
However I do know there are two bottled bacteria starters brands that have been proven to work pretty well.
 
First choice is Dr Tims One and Only Nitrifying Bacteria which can be easily obtained online, not many LFS stocks this as far as I know.
 
Second choice is Tetra Safe Start, a lot of LFS do stock this as well as being easily obtainable online.
 
Both of these bottles contains the right types of bacterias needed to kick start the cycling process, but instructions on the bottle must be followed to have any chance of success with these.

 

[fatheadminnow]

It must be similar to Bio Spira.  That one worked very well.  I do agree there are some that do have benefits but nothing that I have seen at LFS that do and not the product the OP purchased.  
 
I just did some reading.  Tetra safestart actually is the product that replaced Bio Spira.  (didn't know that).  I guess Marineland joined with Tetra to make a product that did not require refrigeration.  Good to know.  
 
http/www.aquariumplants.com/SAFESTART_instant_tank_cycler_replacement_for_Ma_p/tet-01.htm

 

[metulburr]

 
 
The people at your LFS are selling these items to get money.  That is it.

I did not buy it. The guy gave it to me for free, and gave me directions on how much to use. I doubt he would give me a free bottle if he was trying to make money. It would either work great, in that case both the LTS and I are both happy has i would buy more as needed. ,or it wouldnt work and he just lost another bottle with no income. And i would just be left with regular cycling. 
 

 
Ammonia at or above .25ppm can cause permanent gill damage and kill the fish.  Nitrite at or above .25ppm can cause permanent nerve damage and kill the fish.
 
It is very important to keep both ammonia and nitrite at or below .25ppm.  This will most likely be impossible while in a fish-in cycle but you should try your best.  You're probably going to be looking at doing multiple, large, water changes every day for a few weeks. 

Thanks. I did not know this much.