3 Weeks Into Fishless Cycle - No Nitrites

[librarygirl]

I and a number of others in the US have had very low KH, GH and lowish pH and have had long and difficult fishless cycles in the past. For a while I thought all of the UK people were lucky, seeming to have enough minerals that usually cycling went better and often having plants do a little better from that same thing. But eventually I noticed a number of UK folks having trouble with very soft water and it made the statistics feel a little more normal again.

During my first long fishless cycle I certainly had time for plenty of doubts about the whole business of fishless cycling. I sometimes wondered if the whole thing was some weird hoax. The social pressure from extended family and friends was horrific - it's amazing the people that will give you a hard time about a tank without fish, even people that are then not interested in the fish once they're in there, lol.

The real jolt though was that first day when the API nitrite test went back to sky blue after being dark purple for weeks and weeks. I'll never forget it. Wow, the whole thing was for real! And now I understood it! Eventually, the next big shock was watching the fish the first month or two. I'd had basements full of tanks and years of experience knowing when fish felt good and when they didn't and I couldn't remember ever seeing fish that happy from day one. They were just prancing about, showing off their best colors and fairly bursting in this new environment - I realized this was just the nicest water I'd ever had to offer to new fish and it felt strange and wonderful to have done it with "a process."

We've had some real marathons getting people through long first cycles and we've had our share of those long ones give up but we've also our share, more I think, that have felt the taste of victory. Anyway, all of us feel for ya.
~~waterdrop~~

Wow that sounds awesome! When I got the first tank back in April PetSmart didn't tell me about cycling (just to "run" the tank for a week before adding fish ) and soon after I learned about cycling. I tried to make sure my fish didn't suffer but I'll never know if they did and I know I spent all of my time worrying about them instead of being able to enjoy them.

I'll try the baking soda this weekend as you suggested (I have to buy a new box, as the only ones I have now are already in use in my fridge and freezer lol) and I'll try the dosage you suggested, and keep testing PH until it gets to between 8.0-8.4. Should I test the PH every day and add baking soda as needed to keep the PH up? How long should this go on before I know whether or not this worked? I'm guessing if I don't see nitrites in x days then the attempt to change the PH/KH wasn't helpful.

Not sure if this is relevant, but I (maybe stupidly) did a large water change on Sunday, I thought maybe it would somehow kick-start something. All it seemed to do is stall everything further. Before the pwc, the ammonia was dropping some. SInce redosing to 2 on Sunday, the ammonia has not dropped at all (still 2 PM as of last night).

Thanks again for your continued help, much appreciated!

 

[This Younger Spouse]

Librarygirl, mature filter media has already been mentioned, but I'm struck by how fast it can cycle a new tank. I started up a second tank, a long 20-gallon, and it cycled and was ready for fish in 2-3 days. I used filtration rated for a 30-gallon tank to up the rate the water was filtered, and added two pieces of filter media from other tanks (one from my 55-gallon and one from on of my spouse's tanks), and I had the cherished 0, 0 and 20ppm (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) triple victory in under three days. It was a fishless cycle.

This was using fresh dechlorinated tap water (ours is always pH 6.5 out of the tap), brand new sand, gravel, rocks and wood, so the only bacteria present in the whole system were living in the filter media borrowed from those other tanks.

Our closest good LFS is a 2-hour drive, but last time we were there we asked him if he'd be willing to sell some mature filter media out of one of his tanks to help someone cycle a fresh tank and he said he'd GIVE anyone in that situation a nice big hunk of it. And that's smart of him, since it'll build immediate goodwill and likely a lifelong customer.

Not throwing stones at PetSmart, but if you live in/near a city big enough for a chain store like that, likely you also have a number of independent LFSs in the area. Usually it's one or two people running these stores as individuals or a family partnership, and it's a great idea to check a few of them out, explain your problem and ask if they'll give/sell you a piece of mature media. Take it home in a bag just like with fish, and chuck it behind the filter in your existing tank. Give it 12 hours and start measuring levels.

One thing to remember if you do it (and I would have muffed it but from a reminder from the friendly folks here on TFF), is once you get those readings, be sure to either add fish right away or start putting in small amounts of ammonia or fish food (which breaks down to ammonia), so those bacteria have something to eat, or they'll die off.

Good luck, and like the others said, stick with it!

 

[This Younger Spouse]

Librarygirl, a bit more detail from my notes on the 20-gallon. I hope this helps!

June 28
Established tank with new sand, rocks, hunk of driftwood, filled with dechlorinated tapwater (Stress Coat dechlorinator). After 3 hours, ammonia was .3 ppm, nitrite 0 and nitrate 0.

June 29
Ammonia .2 ppm, nitrite 0, nitrate 7 ppm

June 30
Ammonia 0.0, nitrite 0, nitrate 20 ppm. Half a dozen endlers (like guppies) introduced to tank, along with some plant bulbs. All began thriving immediately with no shock effects on the fish.

I added half a dozen corys a few days ago, and they are doing perfectly.

Since June 30, the tank has never registered above .05 ammonia, nitrite has stayed at 0, and nitrate has fluctuated between 10-20 ppm.

It strikes me that such a method may be the perfect shortcut.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, mature media is always good if you can get it. And of course once one has their first big cycled filter they then have their own mature media in the future, so fishless cycling is normally only about people who are cycling their first tank (ever or after a period with no tank) and have not lucked in to any mature media. WD

 

[Miles_hot]

Younger spouse - was that a 3 day "cycle" and did you add ammonia? Was the mature media in the filter?

Miles

 

[This Younger Spouse]

Younger spouse - was that a 3 day "cycle" and did you add ammonia? Was the mature media in the filter?

Miles

I didn't add ammonia directly. On day 3 (at the recommendation of folks on this forum) I added fish and fed them, so the bit of leftover food and the fish pee would produce enough ammonia to keep the bacteria going. I did put the mature media in the filters. Stuffed it in behind the new filter elements.

 

[librarygirl]

Librarygirl, mature filter media has already been mentioned, but I'm struck by how fast it can cycle a new tank. I started up a second tank, a long 20-gallon, and it cycled and was ready for fish in 2-3 days. I used filtration rated for a 30-gallon tank to up the rate the water was filtered, and added two pieces of filter media from other tanks (one from my 55-gallon and one from on of my spouse's tanks), and I had the cherished 0, 0 and 20ppm (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) triple victory in under three days. It was a fishless cycle.

This was using fresh dechlorinated tap water (ours is always pH 6.5 out of the tap), brand new sand, gravel, rocks and wood, so the only bacteria present in the whole system were living in the filter media borrowed from those other tanks.

Our closest good LFS is a 2-hour drive, but last time we were there we asked him if he'd be willing to sell some mature filter media out of one of his tanks to help someone cycle a fresh tank and he said he'd GIVE anyone in that situation a nice big hunk of it. And that's smart of him, since it'll build immediate goodwill and likely a lifelong customer.

Not throwing stones at PetSmart, but if you live in/near a city big enough for a chain store like that, likely you also have a number of independent LFSs in the area. Usually it's one or two people running these stores as individuals or a family partnership, and it's a great idea to check a few of them out, explain your problem and ask if they'll give/sell you a piece of mature media. Take it home in a bag just like with fish, and chuck it behind the filter in your existing tank. Give it 12 hours and start measuring levels.

One thing to remember if you do it (and I would have muffed it but from a reminder from the friendly folks here on TFF), is once you get those readings, be sure to either add fish right away or start putting in small amounts of ammonia or fish food (which breaks down to ammonia), so those bacteria have something to eat, or they'll die off.

Good luck, and like the others said, stick with it!

Yes I've heard the benefits of fitler media, but hard to get I asked PetSmart (I offered to buy some gravel from one of their tanks) and they said no and tried so sell me fish. The other small non-chain LFS I've been too I've either ruled out b/c their fish and tanks look sick/not maintained (don't want anything in my tank from them!) or I've talked to the owners about my fishless cycle and was told it will "never" cycle that way and to put in some "insignificant" (his word) fish. So I dont' think I"ll be getting any media from them soon. I do have a small amount of gravel in there and a rock from an established tank but it was either not enough to start the cycle or/and something is wrong with my water that bacteria don't want to form. I'm fearing it's the latter, given I've had so many issues with trying to cycle two tanks and not getting any nitrites I'm wondering if something in my water is just hindering or killing them off. I'll try the baking soda just to see if it helps but I"m starting to think my water is the issue.

 

[Miles_hot]

I see -- so you're basically doing a fish in cycle which means lots of water changes for a reasonable time whilst the filter bacteria grow on. Keep on measuring your tank and react with bigger water changes if the Ammonia or NItrite numbers go above 0.25ppm. Remember that you can remove a lot of water - the fish only need enough to swim upright to not be stressed - so don't worry about doing a big one!

MIiles

 

[librarygirl]

I see -- so you're basically doing a fish in cycle which means lots of water changes for a reasonable time whilst the filter bacteria grow on. Keep on measuring your tank and react with bigger water changes if the Ammonia or NItrite numbers go above 0.25ppm. Remember that you can remove a lot of water - the fish only need enough to swim upright to not be stressed - so don't worry about doing a big one!

MIiles

No sorry, lol I didn't mean to confuse, I'm doing a fishless cycle. Back in April I had bought a 12 gal Marineland (with biowheel and carbon filter pad), I added 4 Glofish on PetSmart's advice. I then found out about cycling and tested water every day and did pwc every day to keep ammonia <0.25 (API Kit). After a few weeks, after one large water change, they all died overnight. I think now it was PH shock as the PH out of my tap is much higher than the tank but I didn't know that then. So once the fish died I started a fishless cycle on that tank, but after 6 weeks total I gave up, figuring either something got into the tank or the filter was sub-par, or something else. I tore everything down, returned the tank for a refund. This was on June 11. But I didn't want to give up on having fish totally so I figured I'd try a brand new setup and fishless cycle. On June 12 I bought and set up my current tank, a 20 gal glass tank with new decor, substrate and two new filters (one Internal fluval U2 with sponge cartridges and biomax cartridge) and one AquaClear 20 HOB with sponge, carbon, and biomax. Between the two tanks, both cycling with fish and then without, I never saw nitrites. So that's where I am now.

 

[This Younger Spouse]

If you post in which city you live, a TFF member might be near enough to you to give you some mature filter media. You could also Google local tropical fish clubs and see if any turn up.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Librarygirl, I think Miles_Hot up there was just posting a reply to "This Younger Spouse" (TYS) since everything TYS has been mentioning is about Fish-In cycling with mature media, which of course is a totally different thing from Fishless Cycling. I do think it's a great thing that our members can do to give lots of suggestions for ways to discover mature media but it is still often a rarity for beginners to find any, so lots of first-timers still end up fishless cycling without mature media.

I wouldn't be to quick to jump to the conclusion that your water is somehow just never going to get a nitrite spike stage. You have changed a lot of things for this time around and if I'm remembering right you are still within the range of time we sometimes see for first stages (ammonia dropping but nitite not yet showing up.) Sometimes we see cases where this can drag out to 3 or even 4 weeks. Even though that is extremely slow for a first stage, it does not necessarily mean that the 2nd or 3rd stage will be overly long.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[librarygirl]

Hi Librarygirl, I think Miles_Hot up there was just posting a reply to "This Younger Spouse" (TYS) since everything TYS has been mentioning is about Fish-In cycling with mature media, which of course is a totally different thing from Fishless Cycling. I do think it's a great thing that our members can do to give lots of suggestions for ways to discover mature media but it is still often a rarity for beginners to find any, so lots of first-timers still end up fishless cycling without mature media.

I wouldn't be to quick to jump to the conclusion that your water is somehow just never going to get a nitrite spike stage. You have changed a lot of things for this time around and if I'm remembering right you are still within the range of time we sometimes see for first stages (ammonia dropping but nitite not yet showing up.) Sometimes we see cases where this can drag out to 3 or even 4 weeks. Even though that is extremely slow for a first stage, it does not necessarily mean that the 2nd or 3rd stage will be overly long.

~~waterdrop~~

Thanks again WD. I'm sorry to keep replying to this thread without new information, but I'm honestly stumped. It will be 28 days tomorrow and as of tonight, no nitrItes and ammonia is still at 2 where it was when I dosed last Sunday, so it seems that water change I did actually made things go slower (the ammonia was dropping every few days before that). In my other tank, I did purchase a seeded sponge from an online seller (not sure if it's OK to post the name here). Within one day my ammonia had dropped significantly and nitrAtes showed up, but then the cycle stalled again and I never saw nitrites. I'm considering trying another sponge this time but I'm hesitant to put it in there if there is something wrong with my water and it will just kill any potential benefit the sponge will have. It may be unlikely my water is the culprit, but it seems plausible at this point given that I couldn't cycle either tank in a total of 3 months. Thanks again!

 

[This Younger Spouse]

Hi Librarygirl, I think Miles_Hot up there was just posting a reply to "This Younger Spouse" (TYS) since everything TYS has been mentioning is about Fish-In cycling with mature media, which of course is a totally different thing from Fishless Cycling. I do think it's a great thing that our members can do to give lots of suggestions for ways to discover mature media but it is still often a rarity for beginners to find any, so lots of first-timers still end up fishless cycling without mature media.

I wouldn't be to quick to jump to the conclusion that your water is somehow just never going to get a nitrite spike stage. You have changed a lot of things for this time around and if I'm remembering right you are still within the range of time we sometimes see for first stages (ammonia dropping but nitite not yet showing up.) Sometimes we see cases where this can drag out to 3 or even 4 weeks. Even though that is extremely slow for a first stage, it does not necessarily mean that the 2nd or 3rd stage will be overly long.

~~waterdrop~~

Actually, it was fishless cycling. I didn't add fish until the tank was cycled. It just happened so fast it probably seemed like fish-in cycling!

And librarygirl, I'm no expert on the long fishless cycle process without mature filter media. Everything I know about that process I've learned here on TFF. Keep up your spirits and it'll happen!

 

[librarygirl]

Thank you everyone, for the encouragement and advice! Good news, I'm getting a sponge filter from a very established clean tank and some java moss and anachris from the same tank, I should be getting these tomorrow. Hopefully they'll work! If not, then I know it's my water.

I really hope I see a purple nitrite tube soon!

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Fishless cycling is strange... First you can't wait to see a purple color in the tube, then you can't wait for it to go back to that light blue!

The sponge filter should give you some movement. It's possible that you won't see much nitrite. The thing about mature media is that the colony of nitrite bacteria probably is about 3x bigger than the ammonia colony. So, the ammonia bacs may produce enough nitrite to keep them happy, but not enough to actually see much increase in nitrite in your test kit. I would keep a close eye on the nitrate as well. You might see more ammonia dropping straight to nitrate, than nitrite.