2 Questions

[Twinklecaz]

Hi everyone, when my tank is finally (sigh) going then I intend to have both plattys and guppys but I just have 2 little questions.

1. Are Red Wag Plattys hard to get hold of in the UK coz I think they're lovely but haven't seen them in any fish shops?

2. I think eventually I want to have a small shoal of Green Neons too. Will they be ok with the guppys coz I've heard tetras can be fin nippers?

 

[TheSims3Dude]

I don't live in the UK, so I'm not quite sure about platies there, but to your other question, here's a site that can help!

http/www.aqadvisor.com/

 

[OldMan47]

Neons and guppies will get along fine. There is no need for an external reference on compatibility SimmsDude. The linked site uses the results of lots of conversations like this one on several different sites and just posts the consensus answers on the adviser site. There is almost no real knowledge contained there but there is a sort of voting method used where if the author gets much the same advice from lots of places, he assumes it is correct. I am certain that many of the sites that I have been on are run by incompetents in the fish world. They may be well intentioned but seldom have the expertise that we enjoy right here. The simplest statement that I can give you is that compatibility statements made here are bas3ed on observed actual interactions to a large degree, while the adviser has people parroting each other with silly statements that are untrue and unproven but are quite common on line. I include things like the often quoted "fact" that bettas will not live in peace with male guppies. That is while I am watching my own male betta swim in gentle peacefulness with the endlers and guppies in my own tanks. The adviser has no patent on bad advice, I have seen the same kind of poor advice given, even here on our own forum, by less experienced people who often quote bad advice given by others. There is nothing that can prevent people giving bad advice, after all we don't want to stifle interactions by hobbyists, it is what the forums are all about. The most we can do is correct bad advice when we see it. I am particularly sensitive to the "collective wisdom" put forth by sites such as the one you have cited. The personal problem that I have with them is that they say things that my over 50 years of fish keeping tells me are simply not true. I can't rewrite the entire fish keeping experience based on my own narrow experiences but can only note the wrong information in areas where my experience gives me some limited expertise. What it does give me is a reason to be a little skeptical about accepting advice from sources where my own experience tells me that they allow bad advice. They may or may not be getting the next bit of advice right but I have no way to judge it.

PS
I think you will find that red wag platies are thought of as a common everyday sort of fish in most LFS and they will stock them from time to time so that those interested can get some before they move on to mickey mouse platies or some other color combination.

 

[Twinklecaz]

Thanks very much. I'll just keep looking. What about the blue ones?

 

[yhbae]

The linked site uses the results of lots of conversations like this one on several different sites and just posts the consensus answers on the adviser site. There is almost no real knowledge contained there but there is a sort of voting method used where if the author gets much the same advice from lots of places, he assumes it is correct.

Please, don't say that. It is heavily based on real knowledge. You might be surprised, but there are many others with real experience in this hobby, and willing to contribute. Please google AqAdvisor and see what kind of responses you get from different sources. Most of them are NOT from beginners and if they are, I double check them as well. If I am in doubt, I tend to repost.

I am certain that many of the sites that I have been on are run by incompetents in the fish world. They may be well intentioned but seldom have the expertise that we enjoy right here. The simplest statement that I can give you is that compatibility statements made here are bas3ed on observed actual interactions to a large degree, while the adviser has people parroting each other with silly statements that are untrue and unproven but are quite common on line.

Please, I like this forum. But there are also many other forums with knowledgeable users. I don't want to mention these forum names, but there are more than 100 on my list alone, and most of them have people with real experiences. I can provide this list, if you are curious. Statements like "seldom have the expertise that we enjoy right here" is plain wrong. I used to post on 3 forums regularly (including this one) and I can assure you, one is not vastly superior to the other.

I include things like the often quoted "fact" that bettas will not live in peace with male guppies. That is while I am watching my own male betta swim in gentle peacefulness with the endlers and guppies in my own tanks.

I actually did a survey on a betta web site - for those who own both of these species. Guess what? About 50% said they are doing fine, while the other 50% say they are not. And this is based on significant number of responses. I guess in your cases, you are on "getting along ok" side. Does that mean the tool should not display a warning in this case? IMO, if close to 50% are having issues, I think that warrants a warning. This is a perfect example of using experience rather than false common knowledge. I can provide the link to this thread on another forum if you like.

The adviser has no patent on bad advice, I have seen the same kind of poor advice given, even here on our own forum, by less experienced people who often quote bad advice given by others. There is nothing that can prevent people giving bad advice, after all we don't want to stifle interactions by hobbyists, it is what the forums are all about. The most we can do is correct bad advice when we see it. I am particularly sensitive to the "collective wisdom" put forth by sites such as the one you have cited. The personal problem that I have with them is that they say things that my over 50 years of fish keeping tells me are simply not true. I can't rewrite the entire fish keeping experience based on my own narrow experiences but can only note the wrong information in areas where my experience gives me some limited expertise. What it does give me is a reason to be a little skeptical about accepting advice from sources where my own experience tells me that they allow bad advice. They may or may not be getting the next bit of advice right but I have no way to judge it.

Please, give me more examples of these "plenty of bad advices". I am not going to claim the system is perfect because it isn't. But it is no where near ad bad as what you make it out to be. And it is evolving with future potential. Do you want to know how many users have also found out through this tool that their original plan wasn't going to work out so they never ended up going in that path?

I want to stay positive and continue to collect knowledge for this app. I can assure you, I am not a kid trying to put together a simple app with collective beginner's knowledge into this system. You may have seen few examples of it in the past but they get corrected pretty fast. You will be surprised how much good information the app poses.

And to others - although I am doing my best to be as correct as I can with this tool, this tool should not be used as a bible either. It should be taken as an opinion and do some further research alongside it. I've seen many many bad advices on the web too - I can assure you, this tool is no where near as bad as what's being described here. I personally kept fish for 7 years too.

 

[Bignose]

Consensus is a pretty terrible way to determine facts, however. Let me give some farcical examples and then a few fish examples.

There was a time when the consensus was that the earth is flat, and that the moon is made of green cheese. Obviously, these are false today.

There was a time when the consensus was that heat was a fluid called phlogiston. This has been proven quite false today as well.

Now for some fish examples. There was a time when undergravel filters were considered the best filters there ever were. Today, they are much more effective and easier filters to use.

Quite a lot of people still believe that all fish have ich and ich is in all water. Fortunately, I think that the word on this one is getting out, but it is still prevalent.

Lastly, a lot of people still believe in pH shock. However, all the evidence shows that fish can adjust their internal pH over 4 units in an hour, and changes in pH only really aren't that stressful. It is changes in hardness levels that are actually significantly stressful. And, most of the time, when water undergoes large hardness changes, it also undergoes large pH changes, and vice versa. So, the blame for a long time has been blamed on pH. But, the scientific facts are that this just isn't true anymore. Despite that almost everyone still calls it a "pH crash".

To reiterate, consensus is a pretty poor way to determine facts. Now, if you researched each question and cited unbiased, objected, well-research sources, then you've got something.

 

[yhbae]

Consensus is a pretty terrible way to determine facts, however. Let me give some farcical examples and then a few fish examples.

There was a time when the consensus was that the earth is flat, and that the moon is made of green cheese. Obviously, these are false today.

There was a time when the consensus was that heat was a fluid called phlogiston. This has been proven quite false today as well.

Now for some fish examples. There was a time when undergravel filters were considered the best filters there ever were. Today, they are much more effective and easier filters to use.

Quite a lot of people still believe that all fish have ich and ich is in all water. Fortunately, I think that the word on this one is getting out, but it is still prevalent.

Lastly, a lot of people still believe in pH shock. However, all the evidence shows that fish can adjust their internal pH over 4 units in an hour, and changes in pH only really aren't that stressful. It is changes in hardness levels that are actually significantly stressful. And, most of the time, when water undergoes large hardness changes, it also undergoes large pH changes, and vice versa. So, the blame for a long time has been blamed on pH. But, the scientific facts are that this just isn't true anymore. Despite that almost everyone still calls it a "pH crash".

To reiterate, consensus is a pretty poor way to determine facts. Now, if you researched each question and cited unbiased, objected, well-research sources, then you've got something.

I understand and I do agree with all of your examples.

Where I don't agree is that my primary source is not based on consensus from beginners, that's all. The above example on the survey on betta vs guppy is based on their actual user experiences rather than what they heard. If one species break the other one apart, for them, that combo isn't working. I don't think that example is quite the same as the ones you mentioned here...

 

[Bignose]

I understand and I do agree with all of your examples.

Where I don't agree is that my primary source is not based on consensus from beginners, that's all. The above example on the survey on betta vs guppy is based on their actual user experiences rather than what they heard. If one species break the other one apart, for them, that combo isn't working. I don't think that example is quite the same as the ones you mentioned here...

But actual user experiences can be fatally flawed as well. Again, look at my above example about pH crashes. In many people's "actual user experiences" their fish died because of a change in pH. Even many LFS shop employees would tell their customers that. However, once I read some actual scientific research on the subject, I started to question it, and am now convinced that pH itself is a very minor disturbance for most fish. I can cite the research papers on which I have based this opinion. But, if you just continued to go by user experience, beginner or experienced, it was very unlikely that the knowledge would have just come out.

Betta versus guppy is the same way. What are the actual numbers? Do you have 5 anecdotes or 500? And the word anecdote is used very conscientiously, because unless there is some sort of actual study done with controls and the like, all you have are anecdote. And anecdote is only very rarely better than having no information at all. That's where having some scientific method becomes so very important. With anecdote, all you have is 1 situation that occurred one time without any controls in place. With a study, you can figure out if what happened has statistical significance or not. That is, whether it is an actual trend or if it was just random luck what happened.

Lastly, and this is something that I should have emphasized more above, but science and facts are not a democracy. Just because a lot of people hold one point of view, does not mean that that reflects on reality. The facts are not determined by popular support, or by consensus, or any other word for it. That's the true power behind science. When it is done right, in an objective, unbiased manner, science gives answers completely independent of any preconceived notions at all. Now, that idealism is rarely realized -- the real word is rarely perfect enough to allow us to study exactly what we want to study perfectly cleanly -- but the main point is again that it is not how popular or how often a point of view is expressed that determines its rightness. It is how well supported it is by the evidence.

So, again, if you support the advice with good evidence, then there isn't an issue. If it is just the most popular or prevalent point of view, then there is a significant risk that all you have is the popular point of view, not the actual facts.

 

[yhbae]

I understand and I do agree with all of your examples.

Where I don't agree is that my primary source is not based on consensus from beginners, that's all. The above example on the survey on betta vs guppy is based on their actual user experiences rather than what they heard. If one species break the other one apart, for them, that combo isn't working. I don't think that example is quite the same as the ones you mentioned here...

But actual user experiences can be fatally flawed as well. Again, look at my above example about pH crashes. In many people's "actual user experiences" their fish died because of a change in pH. Even many LFS shop employees would tell their customers that. However, once I read some actual scientific research on the subject, I started to question it, and am now convinced that pH itself is a very minor disturbance for most fish. I can cite the research papers on which I have based this opinion. But, if you just continued to go by user experience, beginner or experienced, it was very unlikely that the knowledge would have just come out.

Betta versus guppy is the same way. What are the actual numbers? Do you have 5 anecdotes or 500? And the word anecdote is used very conscientiously, because unless there is some sort of actual study done with controls and the like, all you have are anecdote. And anecdote is only very rarely better than having no information at all. That's where having some scientific method becomes so very important. With anecdote, all you have is 1 situation that occurred one time without any controls in place. With a study, you can figure out if what happened has statistical significance or not. That is, whether it is an actual trend or if it was just random luck what happened.

Lastly, and this is something that I should have emphasized more above, but science and facts are not a democracy. Just because a lot of people hold one point of view, does not mean that that reflects on reality. The facts are not determined by popular support, or by consensus, or any other word for it. That's the true power behind science. When it is done right, in an objective, unbiased manner, science gives answers completely independent of any preconceived notions at all. Now, that idealism is rarely realized -- the real word is rarely perfect enough to allow us to study exactly what we want to study perfectly cleanly -- but the main point is again that it is not how popular or how often a point of view is expressed that determines its rightness. It is how well supported it is by the evidence.

So, again, if you support the advice with good evidence, then there isn't an issue. If it is just the most popular or prevalent point of view, then there is a significant risk that all you have is the popular point of view, not the actual facts.

I'm not sure why we are discussing about this since we seem to agree 99% of what you are saying here. It seems that the only thing I don't want to agree on (which I'm not even sure if you disagree with me) is that my source of information is mostly from beginners. All I am saying is that most forums have users with a lot of experiences & knowledge, just like this one, and I do respect their knowledges just as I do here.

As for guppy vs betta, I'm not sure if I want to say that out of 10 sample cases, 5 of them ended up with either dead or specimen in real bad condition because they did something wrong in each cases. If it is that hard for people with decent experiences to keep them together, I prefer to show a warning in such cases. In this case, the moderator of that forum agrees too.

 

[Twinklecaz]

I'M not sure why this is being "discussed" here atall........bearing in mind I only wanted to know where I can get the fish I want and if they will be ok with others. This is totally off topic. Don't want to be nasty or rude but it is...

I don't even like Bettas!

 

[yhbae]

I'M not sure why this is being "discussed" here atall........bearing in mind I only wanted to know where I can get the fish I want and if they will be ok with others. This is totally off topic. Don't want to be nasty or rude but it is...

I don't even like Bettas!

LOL true. You have my apology.

 

[nessar]

If youve got a big enough order to justify the £15 p&p, www.directtropicals.co.uk had both wag and blue coral when I last looked. I got 2 blue coral from them, they are doing great.

Bear in mind you can't choose the sexes though, you may end up with loads of males and 1 female. So just make sure you only buy the amount that you know you can provide 2 females each for if they are all males, if need be from the lfs, if that makes sense.

You could ring them and ask them if they will sex them - they are very friendly. They also send by courier which is much better than royal mail, in a polystyrene box.

oh and the blue ones aren't really blue, they are silver with a blue sheen, the mickey mouse marking also looks bluish.

 

[Truck]

I am certain that many of the sites that I have been on are run by incompetents in the fish world. They may be well intentioned but seldom have the expertise that we enjoy right here. The simplest statement that I can give you is that compatibility statements made here are bas3ed on observed actual interactions to a large degree, while the adviser has people parroting each other with silly statements that are untrue and unproven but are quite common on line.

Yet when I pointed out a blatant error, you didn't really do much to rectify it, regardless of concurrent information given by other members.

I actually did a survey on a betta web site - for those who own both of these species. Guess what? About 50% said they are doing fine, while the other 50% say they are not. And this is based on significant number of responses. I guess in your cases, you are on "getting along ok" side. Does that mean the tool should not display a warning in this case? IMO, if close to 50% are having issues, I think that warrants a warning. This is a perfect example of using experience rather than false common knowledge. I can provide the link to this thread on another forum if you like.

50/50 doesn't mean definitely not compatible then does it? You should put, Guppies may be attacked by Betta's so have a back up plan ready.


I'm with OM47 on this, I've never really considered AQA as a particularly helpful and accurate tool.

 

[Jools :)]

Hi,
I just bought a red wag platy from www.aquaticstoyourdoor.co.uk ,the fish I bought arrived healthy and really lively so would be happy to buy from them again
I know they have more in stock as they display their stock levels on the website.

 

[Twinklecaz]

Good news, I went to my LFS and they did have some blue ones! Whether they'll have them by the time I'm ready to get my fish is another thing but it's good to know that they do.

I saw one that looked like a red wag but I don't think it was. It had a black tail and mostly orange body but it had black markings on its body too. What is that?

P.s If Platys are swimming with all their fins clamped to their bodies does that mean they aren't well/happy?