Fighting Bettas

What I really hate are the idiots who fight pet shop veiltales for fun because they haven't done their research and have no idea what they're doing.

those idiots are kids that stumble upon sites like the one in this thread or many of the others and say 'hey i saw some bettas at my store i'll go buy some and fight them'

i work at a pet store and the people who ask never ask for bettas they always ask for the fish that fights if you put them together, it gets quite annoying really :/
 
I don't mind the people that know what they are doing when fighting bettas. They probably take more care of their bettas better than some of us do. I also know that they would never leave a fish in there long enough for another to kill it. I just don't think it's a good idea to promote them. Kids see these things and think right away "Wow, that's cool. I want to try it" then go off, buy two bettas, and put them together. Not knowing the proper way to do it and the proper bettas to get.
Like I said, I don't mind the experts who do it...I just don't think it should be promoted so freely.
 
xXMrBonesXx said:
What I really hate are the idiots who fight pet shop veiltales for fun because they haven't done their research and have no idea what they're doing.

those idiots are kids that stumble upon sites like the one in this thread or many of the others and say 'hey i saw some bettas at my store i'll go buy some and fight them'
Oh please, the idiots who do that have probably never even seen a website about bettas. The site posted had some pretty good information about how to care for your fighters, so if anyone was the slightest bit interested in fighting bettas, I would HOPE they found a site like that one.
The idiots who do that have simply heard that bettas will fight to the death and want to see some blood for themselves.
 
Synirr said:
Oh please, the idiots who do that have probably never even seen a website about bettas. The site posted had some pretty good information about how to care for your fighters, so if anyone was the slightest bit interested in fighting bettas, I would HOPE they found a site like that one.
The idiots who do that have simply heard that bettas will fight to the death and want to see some blood for themselves.
Actually, my boyfriend did this (he got a huge talk from me when he told me though) because he saw some site about it. I don't remember which one it was though. He just thought it was cool and did it. The fish didn't die because of that but they also didn't get treated for their wounds. It did say the proper way to fight them and how to treat them but people don't want to waste so much money just to fight them. So they do it and just dont treat them. I'm sure some people do get everything they need to fight them but others don't because they're lazy and cheap and just want to see some fights.
 
In the padi fields, they have lots of space and can make a getaway. In the confines of a tank or jar, they are cornered and forced to fight for their survival.

Putting two bettas into a tank or jar is cruel and I don't see why there is a need for bettas to fight for the mere pleasure of humans.

One may argue that it is a cultural or traditional thing and that it's been done for centuries. But does something being cultural or traditional mean that it's right?

I
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my bettas too much to let them suffer this way. No physical contact for my bettas. Daily flaring exercise is as far as it goes.

Edit: I was at my betta club's last AGM and I am glad that we accepted an official position on fighting bettas. My club "frowns on, and is against the "sport" of fighting betta species, whether in organised fights or individual challenges." I am also glad that it is against the law to fight bettas in my country.
 

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I know I said I wouldn't post further on this topic, but I am too distraut to not say something more. If I end up in a brawl and have to leave the site for offending people, then so be it. For something needs to be said about this.

I would like to ask everyone who supports betta fighting if they also support "professional" dog fighting and cock fighting? After all, in the professional form of both of these "sports," the dogs or roosters are conditioned, are broken up before a kill (usually), and are treated for their injuries. And yet, both of these activities are illegal in most nations or states as it is accepted that fighting animals for betting or entertainment is cruelty. The nervous system of a fish is very similar to that of a mammal, suggesting that bettas have the same capacity for pain as a pit bull or a rooster. Why, then, would it be ok to fight fish if not mammals and birds?
I have worked with professionally fought pit bulls who were "retired" to a shelter. They absolutely have the same gameness to fight that bettas do; one actually broke the hinges on his kennel door to go after an enemy male who was double his weight. He lost the fight because he was overwhelmed by the other, but even pinned on the ground with jaws on his neck, he tried to fight. I do not call this a love of fighting, I call it an instinct exaggerated by breeding and enhanced by training. It is no different then what goes on in fighting bettas. To say that fighting dogs, cocks, or bettas are like two boxers is sheer ignorance. There are several key differences. One, while pits, bettas, and roosters all have a "desire" to fight (a term I hesitate to use as it is anthropomorphism), it is based in instict, an instict enhanced by breeding and/or training. In boxers, fighting is a concious choice, and requires training and committment that he or she has personally dedicated themselves to. Secondly, in boxing, the fighter goes in knowing the risk of his or her injury. I would say that most animals are not very capable of looking ahead into the future and realizing the consequences of their actions, so most are fighting our of pure instinct and aren't necesarily thinking of the consequences, but only of the battle. Boxers also differ from animals in that they usually decide when they've had enough and need to give up. These animals are so enslaved by their drive to fight that they would sooner die than give in most of the time, which is why a human referee is needed. And finally, the fight between animals is arranged under forced conditions, regardless of how "game" they are. A boxer chooses to step into a ring, but a betta, pit bull, and rooster are placed there with no escape, their only motivation being the subconcious knowledge of "kill, or be killed." As someone else said, wild bettas have their own established territory and would only be fighting if it was invaded by another betta. In a betta fight, they are placed together with no other option but to battle one another.
Someone else had mentioned that people fighting bettas is no different than childhood cruelty committed against insects. I do not understand how this argument improves your side, that betta fighting is acceptable. For what you have done is basically admitted that betta fighting is cruel, but it is ok because the people don't know any better? I beg to differ. Childhood cruelty to animals is born of curiosity and ignorance. Adults have a sense of right and wrong, as we've seen in many ethical discussions here. Since not every adult fights bettas, we can clearly see that some adults realize it is inhumane, and thus refrain from it. Therefore, it is not like people who do this are merely enslaved by their drive to hurt things out of child-like curiosity. Children usually do not understand the outcomes of their actions, and many get upset after a few "experiments" resulting in an animal's death and stop.
At this point, I would like to say that I am insulted by those of you insinuating that people who deliberately deliver their bettas to harm treat their animals better than myself and other fishkeepers do. I strongly doubt that these "professional betta fighters" keep their fish in the conditions that many hobbyists here do. I'm sure they keep them clean, well fed, etc. so they will be in good shape for the fight, but are you honestly suggesting that they're better keepers than we are when they DELIBERATELY allow their fish to be hurt? Shame on you! Most of the people here who have wronged their fish did so out of ignorance or having been mislead by a LFS. Are you saying deliberate cruelty at some times and good care at other times is in some way better than poor care out of simply not knowing better? Or good care with no cruelty? I really don't like that argument, and frankly I am offended by it, as I suspect many other fishkeepers would be.
And yes, I agree with those who have said that people who fight fish probably did so because they heard or read about it. While they may not have gone to the website of a professional fighter, does that change the fact that the reason they know fighting exists is because professional fighting does occur? I'm sure ametures wouldn't be fighting pit bulls right now if they hadn't heard "through the grapevine" about professional fights. I've said it before and I've said it again: saying bloodsports are acceptable under some conditions essentially says that they are acceptable under all conditions. There's no such thing as being "acceptably immoral."
So, to reiterate my points:
1) While betta fighters may take good care of their fish, they have negated all of their kindness by forcing their animals to fight, so far as I am concerned.
2) Fish can not "love" to fight; they are a primitive species with a primitive brain, and probably do not even have the capacity to derive pleasure from battle. Rather, they have a strong instinct to battle that is enhanced by training and breeding.
3) To use an animal's instinct against it for the purpose of betting in a way that causes it harm is just as immoral in fish as it is in dogs and roosters.
4) Bettas in the wild fight for territory for the purpose of survival, not for the joy of it. Thus, suggesting it is only natural for them to fight is a half-truth and a contrived justifaction for putting them in an unnatural situation where they cannot settle their differences with a few blows and a retreat. Fighting to the death every time they meet another fish would not be a good survival tactic for the species, so I would suggest that the fights we see in captivity are somewhat forced by the lack of room to escape.
5) Even if fought bettas (dogs, roosters, whatever) are treated well by professionals, condoning fighting sets a dangerous precedent that suggests it is somehow OK under certain situations, something which will encourage others to do it under less safe, less "humane" conditions.
6) Betta fighting - and all animal fighting - can not and should not be compared to boxing, as personal choice is replaced by instinct in animals, and the fighters are forced to face off at the whim of their masters.

I think that about covers it. I'm not targetting anyone in specific here, I'm just getting my opinion out in hopes of swaying people who might be on the fence on this issue. I realize both sides have compelling arguments, but I will never yeild in my opinion that cruelty is cruelty. And, yes, I know we won't be able to change what is going on over in Thailand and other countries, but it would be good to discourage it in countries like the US and the nations in Europe as it may lead to it being made illegal, something that would be a huge a triumph for the welfare of these mistreated animals.
I hope I haven't severely offended anyone in this post, but I simply can not submit and act like I think this is OK. If I angered you, I hope you understand and will agree to disagree, as I really like this forum and respect the members here. I don't want to have to leave because I end up prompting you to hate me.
 
Putting it that way I would have to agree with most of the points you made.
Although bettas are born and instinctively (sp?) want to fight. Those who breed them know this. Pitbulls are born and are not like that. Like you said, they are conditioned to be like this. They are not born to want to fight as with roosters. Roosters and Pits can live together and they wont fight as long as the owners weren't conditioning them to do it. I don't support pitbull fighting and rooster fighting because these animals are not born to fight. Yes, they were bred to fight but with proper care they wont do it.
 
I would like to politely disagree at least with the roosters, as their situation is closer to bettas than that of pit bulls. Roosters will not fight with other roosters if they have enough space to keep away from them. However, when you confine roosters together, they will indeed fight in almost all instances. Wild bettas are much like this. They will fight if they are crowded or to defend territory in the wild. In captivity, they are out of their element and too closely confined, and thus will almost always fight. While the bettas instinct is certainly more pronounced than that of a rooster, and they have more fight readiness by nature, they still wouldn't constantly fight in nature with adequate territory or the species simply wouldn't survive.

As for pit bulls, that really depends on the dog. Pit bull from fighting lines do have an inborn agression, much like bettas from fighting lines are more agressive than usual. I know pits who were perfectly well socialized but still became dog agressive at maturity. However, this fighting instinct or more bred than natural in them as dogs are social by nature, so I will give you that.

Also, just to point out, no animal exists to fight, they exist to survive and to mate, regardless of the species. The point of a betta's life is not to battle to the death, it is to battle to maintain territory, and thus be able to survive and procreate. Just a little thing I felt was worth mentioning since I've seen many people post as though the whole point to the betta's existance is fighting. ;)
 
Pit bulls fight naturally because of their personality. I know someone whose had over 10 pits together and they never fought. They were not trained although they were socialized a bit. But socializing should be done with any dog.
As for the roosters, you're right, they do protect their property if it's a small space and will become agressive if another rooster comes into the picture but roosters don't grow long claws that are made of silver. People put those on because without those the roosters can't really cause harm fast. I don't see people putting things onto a betta to make it a more vicious fight.
 
So... betta fighting is OK because they are more adept fighters? :huh:
I think the point that I'm trying to make that is clearly being missed is that, althought bettas are very good fighters and have the drive to fight, fighting bettas for sport is something contrived because, were they in the wild, they would only fight to maintain territory, so therefore it doesn't make sense to say that their life's purpose is to kill one another. If any one species's purpose was to kill others of its kind whenever it encountered them, I think that animal would rapidly find itself facing extinction. Yes, animals do kill conspecifics for prey, mates, territory, etc. but none that I know of kill one another just because that's "how they are."

I should probably step out of this soon before I make enemies, because my opinion isn't going to change, nor is anyone else's. I think arguing is a human instinct :lol:

edit: I'm too lazy to make another post but:
I see your point as I said before. I just don't think betta fighting should be compared to pitbull and rooster fighting because it's not the same at all.
While they def. have differences, the message and the mentality in professional betta fighting seems very similar to that in professional dog fighting and cock fighting. (I know of dog fighters who "love" their dogs so much they have their names tatood on their arms.) So, while there are key differences the concept behind all animal fighing is essentially the same so far as I am concerned.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter. ;)
 
I see your point as I said before. I just don't think betta fighting should be compared to pitbull and rooster fighting because it's not the same at all.
 
Synirr said:
I'd say it's an "okay" practice. I think of it as a pair of boxers... once it's clear who won the match, they go their separate ways and get medical treatment for any injuries they received.
What I really hate are the idiots who fight pet shop veiltales for fun because they haven't done their research and have no idea what they're doing.
Boxers fight because they want to. If they didn't, they simply wouldn't be stepping into the ring.
Bettas don't have much choice if you dump them together with another fish.
 
wuvmybetta said:
Imagine everyone,if you will, you as a young child and you look forward to summers,going out and hunting a grasshopper who would arm wrestle with one of it's own kind. Let's pretend that the strongest hopper would break the leg of the other...maybe even snap it's neck. Crazy analogy,but work with me. Wouldn't you have played with them? It's really no different than catching a glowbug and smearing the lightening end all over your shirt,then dropping the corpse to die. I know 85% of us did that. Or catching ladybugs in a jar until they die of starvation or suffocate to death. We all did it. Grabbing a butterfly for our "collection" and sticking a pin through it..
I came along and kicked the a##es of all the kids who did this stuff when I was little.

lol
 

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