inbreeding....

"cross-breeding is a must if u want ur fishes to have a healthy and rich gene pool. inbred will weaken ur fishes. Where i came from, there is an unwritten rule about inbred bettas, atleast this is how I were taugh. U don't inbred bettas for more than 2 generations. people inbred fishes to keep or extract certain trait. but too much inbred will lead u to nothing but trouble...example: defect born, weaken imune system to fight diseases, dwarf size fishes....etc."

one of my "senior adviser's", an old time viet breeder offers up the advice above.

i think it's important food for thought for all of the "show betta" breeders out there. do we really want to compromise the health of our fish for the benefit of a "best in show"?
there is a reason why short tail "fighter" plakats are tougher than long finned "pretty boys"...there's is no reason to inbreed them. "new blood" is always desired in the quest for a plakat that meets all the requirements of a champion.
it's one of the reasons i will not even attempt to breed halfmoons anymore, way too fragile and weak. i would love to see pics of a lot of these "perfect half moons or super deltas" 6 months after the pic is taken, how many of them have blown fins or have succumed to disease by then? how many of them have been taken from the critical water conditions (very important when dealing with halfmoons) of say thailand, shipped to america or wherever by the lucky aquabid winner only to have them die shortly after arrival? it all comes down to too much inbreeding in the hopes of establishing a lineage, a perfect colour, a perfect fin span etc.

lets have a meaningful debate people, pros and cons? i've offered up my feelings (i didn't always realize this by the way, it's something i've discovered myself in certain fish i've bred and it's something that certain knowledgable breeders have told me). how do you all feel about it ?

personally i agree iwth you, but i bleieve there are some people out there who breed bettas in an attempt to find that perfect strain/color/finnage, and will inbred as many generations as they need to get this.

But what you stated is true (what's with halfmoons? i don't get that part ), as obviously inbreeding will cause problems. I dont' think you should inbred for more than 2 generations, and if you want to breed the babies of those genreatiosn you'll have to introduce new blood into the line

jsut my 2 cents for what it's worth

I pretty much agree, although I don't see a problem with going a generation or 2 past the 2nd generation IF the spawns are coming out mostly deformity free and healthy. But once you start to see problems, then that is definetly the time to back off and get some new blood into the line. I personally haven't gone past the 2nd generation as I'm still new, and honestly I doubt I will anytime soon, it actually seems a little boring to me, I'm looking forward to some surprises in spawns, and you aren't going to get that just breeding sibling to sibling for several generations. I'm always trying to think of ways to work my lines besids the sibling matchup, even if it is a child to parent, or child to aunt/uncle, just seems more fun to me.

Linda

thats kind of my thinking too sharks1fan
you put soo much time and energy into breeding that if the fish always turn out the same it gets boring
since i've started selling, inbreeding is something that i have really thought about. if i put a "product" on the shelves i want to know that it is the strongest, healthiest product possible as it has my name on it. i would rather someone buys a healthy fish with the best possible chance of surviving than have to worry about the color being "just right" or "show quality" enough. i guess it means i'll never be a "pro breeder" but i don't care. it's not my livelihood, infact, my wife takes 100% of the "profits" anyways

some more thoughts from another person who's opinion i respect;

"In my opinion, show bettas are indeed quite inbred and I've even gotten into a heated discussion with a show breeder on this.

Unfortunately enough, some bettas show signs similar to what has already happened to the guppy. Its just so easy to over inbreed with today's setting. And for some funny reason, almost no ornamental breeder recognizes this fact and keeps a blind eye to the terrible effects of over inbreeding.

The two generation rule may indeed be true... but then again you don't get fish nowadays that have just been inbred for 2 generations. Ornamental breeders would inbreed to get the qualities they like such as tail spread, pure color etc. They need a series of inbreedings to the tune of 3-5 at the very least to get these traits out. Ironically enough, after this whole inbreeding process, they'd end up selling sibling pairs which would again go through the cycle of inbreedings in the hand of another breeder. In a word, the breeder that you bought the fish from most probably worked with inbred fish and sold you this good looking inbred fish only to end up being inbred again this time by you to again get good looking fish.

Its just a game of russian roulette to find out who would be handling the bloodline before the genetic deformities come out... but they will come out eventually and to a lot of ornamental lines, something so simple as fin rot is already lethal, something that a real fighter would easily just shrug away.

That's why I like plakats and wild forms. Not to inbred and excellent quality fish. Strong and if you're really that good, you may never need to buy any med or supplement."

honestly I doubt I will seldom go past a sibling breeding. I have so many studs and females I have no need to inbreed right now. If I want to perfect a color I may researxch that further but as of now no cousin' lovin' yet....Also I will have records as far back as I can go on my lineages.

Very good info BKK, also nice to know how you feel on things when it comes to betta, I always like reading your info....

Up until my last spawn,I've bred nothing but sibling pairs. I must admit...it's by far much more exciting and interesting to mix your own. I really have no firm stance on inbreeding because it's the way of the betta world,no one can deny that. But I do believe some strains are bred to death. I bought a pair of CT siblings from what would seem to be a reputable seller, I had quite a few deformities show up in my first spawn from them That sucks. So now I want to mix the father with an unrelated mother and see what happens. The current fry aren't going to be sold in pairs,they're going in trios including an extra female from another spawn. The remaining males will be sold solo and I'll just keep the girls in order to break the cycle.

They need a series of inbreedings to the tune of 3-5 at the very least to get these traits out. Ironically enough, after this whole inbreeding process, they'd end up selling sibling pairs which would again go through the cycle of inbreedings in the hand of another breeder

Click to expand...

Exactly. That's what happens when you buy pairs from certain sites. You never know which generation you're getting.

Very interesting thread as always,bkk.

i was unaware of your problems with the ct spawn wuv
you are a responsible breeder though and it's great that you are including an unrelated female when you sell them

well to have been worryed about inbreeding and have decided never to buy sibling pairs of an kind. iv also contacted the breeder of my fish that i recently one requesting a brief spawning history. i bout ill get any feedback, but its worth a shot i have one golden rule i have created to end inbreeding, "dont make your fish do u wouldn't want to do " im sure if u ever consider spawning siblings and stop n think about this, u'll change ur mind ( if not theres sumthin wrong wit u )

breeders breed their fish so that they have both strength and color, and inbreeding seens to b the only way. i had a real good idea and id like to share it with u folks so that one of u can tell me if it works

it goes like this:

say u wanna breed a pair of blood red bettas and u dont how inbred the pair is. my soulution is instead of buying one sibling pair, u buy 2 sibling pairs that look very simular. ( neither pair are related ). then switch out the female in pair 1 for the female in pair 2 and the female in pair 2 for the female in pair 1. spawn these new pairs so that u only inbreed twice ( like suggested ) then take 1 female from both of the most recent spawns and put them in place of the mother in the opposite pair. and repeat. u all get that lol i confused myself but i think i got it down right

eventually with the above plan u would end up with deep inbreeding but this is slowed to to the constant change out of females.

could this work? because this way the breeder gets wat he wants and the amount of culls per spawn are decreased and the strength of the fish wont be effected.

im gunna hafta put this down on paper tumarrow and make a lil family tree because i dout anyone can interprit that

dude i was thinking the same thing... but i was saying say take 2 sibling pairs say

& and & then pair them

& and & then if u need to breed the kids sorta the same way

ya that would work to but u c then the fish would be nearly identicle anyway so the second generation will be inbred because:

+ and + ---------> + and + and both pairs will make then ur back to + and then it will be inbred. im sure if i did this with mine it would probably come out the same way to just thelines are mad stronger by takeing the switched pair and breeding into the second generation and then switching again where they will be bred into the second generation.

i like how u used smilees, i shoulda did that

yes but even with technically the same genes it would basically be cousin cousin which is still stronger then b&s

I'm always learning something new. I wouldn't inbreed too much anyway, I wouldn't need the same fish over and over and over and over again.

notice my males, most are all blue/white, i was already planning on this...the males are similar and the females will be also