any more discussion on the smallest proper sized shoal for Angel Fish??? or the smallest aquarium you should be allowed to keep angel fish in

Very, very VERY seldom do angels kill each other. It does happen but is very rare.

ghyti said:

Very, very VERY seldom do angels kill each other. It does happen but is very rare.

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I will respectfully disagree. They pick at and harass other angels. True, they don't rip their throats out, but if they are not moved the relentless stress makes the weaker fish fall ill and die. I say that as someone who has bred angels, and kept them off and on for decades.

I never had trouble with altums, and never liked leopoldi. But scalare are often very nasty. I never leave them to finish up dead when the squabbling gets a focus. I move them and that ruins plans.

GaryE said:

Everything I suggest is based on my "fish behaviour is why we keep them' approach.

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^^^^
Absolutely this. The "minimum" tank size or gallons/fish rules that are routinely posted online are abhorrent. IMO tanks smaller than a 40 gallon long are simply unacceptable for most fish species, and fish larger than 6" shouldn't be kept at all unless you're operating something on the scale of public aquariums.

I keep 4 adult discus, 4 corydoras, 15 cardinal tetras, one red lizard, one bristlenose, and one dwarf white spotted catfish in a 9' (180 gallon) tank and consider it fully stocked. Behavior is the key word. Watching the fish move around and interact unimpeded is a pure joy.

So, Magnum, here we go again! ha ha! I hope you can learn not to take this stuff so personally. (But don't feel bad; I still do too, sometimes, when people say things that come across that way)

What I shared in the other thread was my experience. @ghyti seems to have had a very different experience. It is generally not entirely safe to assume that one's experience is universal. These are living creatures with a huge natural range, that have been domesticated (and probably hybridized) for a long time. It only makes sense that there is going to be variation in behavior and requirements. As Gary said, no hard answers. Just recommendations.

Based on my experiences with two different groups of angels, I wouldn't keep one alone, as they really do seem to enjoy interacting with others of their kind and it seems a shame to deprive them of that. But I wouldn't keep a group in anything smaller than, oh, maybe a 100 gallon or so, because they can be irritable little cusses and need space to get away from each other. That isn't a rule; it's my experience. Do with it what you will.

plebian said:

I keep 4 adult discus, 4 corydoras, 15 cardinal tetras, one red lizard, one bristlenose, and one dwarf white spotted catfish in a 9' (180 gallon) tank and consider it fully stocked. Behavior is the key word. Watching the fish move around and interact unimpeded is a pure joy.

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What sounds wonderful. I admire your restraint. My fish keeping journey has been a constant battle against over-stocking. There are so many different fish out there, and they're all so pretty! I'm learning, though, to er on the side of smaller fish and fewer species.

WhistlingBadger said:

I admire your restraint. My fish keeping journey has been a constant battle against over-stocking. There are so many different fish out there, and they're all so pretty!

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It's been a lesson learned over time simply through observation. Every time I see a new species/variant become available I'm tempted. Then I think about how it would affect my existing community and the desire fades.

Right now, my 75 gallon has 8 moon tetras (2 inches) and 2 dwarf Chromidotilapia nana. That's as much as I'd stock it.

Beside it is another 75 that I see as heavily stocked - 4 Dicrossus, 20 assorted tetras, 12 cardinals and a group of 8 Corys and Scleromystax (I couldn't get larger groups when I saw them - last in tank fish at the seller's). Both tanks work, though the second makes me work more.

Both tanks are relics of my angel keeping days, and I'm glad to have no angels in there. I love that fish species, and it's easy to become attached to individual angels, but I had to leave mine with friends when I moved, and it has been liberating. The entire problem was aggression, and picking at each other. They were picked up for one tank, but I got 3 males and a couple of females, so they took over 3 tanks.

Restraint comes with experience. I've never met, or been an aquarist with less than 20 years experience who didn't try to overstock. Formulas get invented, justifications abound - we just want a lot of different fish but tend not to have a lot of different tanks when we start. Sometimes, we get lucky, usually, we don't.

I also think perspective matters. When you learn how aggression works with angels, and that comes from keeping a number of groups in different tanks, you see behaviours that are trouble. Early in the adventure, I never separated angels. My first successful breeding was in a 33 gallon community tank. I had bought 3 and one was killed (at the time, I thought it was an unexplained death). If I ever bite again, and it would take seeing wild angels in my out of the way region, I wouldn't tolerate seeing what I saw and misunderstood then.
I won't see anything but domestic angels here, so I'm saved from temptation. I would love to have 8, but...

Also, because of variation in dorsal length and body to fin size, I would never buy angels online. You should see them and pick them carefully. A lot of the linebreds are stumpy, inelegant fish. Scalare should have style, and not deviate too much from the natural fish shapewise. I know, an easily ignored opinion - very subjective. But once you have seen the real thing, it's hard not to compare.

So… if they don’t make a good centerpiece fish either, I may just have to give up on them… since I have no interest in breeding them, and no local shop to hand pick… I used to have them when I was younger… I had 3 zebra lace that had red eyes… they weren’t really albino, so I just called them my “stoned angels” and I had them for several years, in a 30 gallon community tank… and I really liked them… now that I’m getting older, thought it would be cool to have them again…

However now I like my tanks to look peaceful… funny that I don’t remember them sparing, but many of my fish were very aggressive back then, so if there was stress in the tank, I maybe didn’t notice with all the other aggressive fish activity in other tanks

I may still decide to buy one, because I’ve never been a conformist… I have one tank, that literally has everything wrong, and yet everyone looks healthy & at peace… it may come crashing to an end someday, but as long as I have kept fish now… today my goal is long term stability… back 20 or 30 years ago, if a fish lasted more than a year, you must be doing something right… but life is a big experiment, and right now my tank with everything wrong, is one of my favorites…

The one I was considering the angels for only has 4 juvenile Congo Tetras in it, other than bottom fish ( they were added as a test to weather I could actually keep a soft water fish alive, with my bad water… they were added as a test, after switching over to the RO… I’m thinking I would like more of those to get closer to a proper shoal, and maybe add one Zebra lace down the road…

This tank has literally everything wrong, from the lucky bamboo, to all the fish and substrate, yet it seems to work… and requires very little maintenance, even the water tests good before my regular water changes

Magnum Man said:

This tank has literally everything wrong, from the lucky bamboo, to all the fish and substrate, yet it seems to work… and requires very little maintenance, even the water tests good before my regular water changes

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Off-topic but how are the bamboos doing? How long have you had them completely submerged?

Over a year now… the tall ones in the tank I just pictured, were completely submerged… I just repotted in ventilated pots with river rocks, taller, so they will become emergent…

I’m going to remove some that have been submerged, but the stalks were only a few inches tall… they are still alive, but not growing, and are starting to cover with some algae

Magnum Man said:

Over a year now… the tall ones in the tank I just pictured, were completely submerged… I just repotted in ventilated pots with river rocks, taller, so they will become emergent…

I’m going to remove some that have been submerged, but the stalks were only a few inches tall… they are still alive, but not growing, and are starting to cover with some algae

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ohh, so it is possible to grow them fully submerged...
thanks!

They grow slowly… look at the braided towers… these pictures are 6 - 7 months apart

Interesting! I've always heard that if you grow them fully submerged, the tops will rot. I've always grown mine with the tops out of the water.

We're getting out of topic here but that really is impressive, I was always told they'll die. I'm gonna add some in my tank now

I do not believe Angel fish live in shoals. That would be unnatural. They pair off and should be kept in pairs.