Losing fish, advice appreciated

Naughts said:

Most of the biggest experts (though too humble to ever label themselves as such) on this site - Colin, Byron, Abbey'sdad, have just given you advise to change (more) water. You do seem to appreciate them taking the time to explain, but I'm not sure you accept it.


The consistent advise on TFF is free and low tech. Use sponge filteration and live plants, do large regular water changes with minimal chemicals and treatments. Why do you think we are the ones that are falling victim to consumerism?

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I wasn't suggesting you are falling victim to consumerism. I was more thinking of myself, before I took the time to learn about the nitrogen cycle, when I used an internal Fluval U4, and didn't understand the function of its various parts, and slowly cultivated a nitrate factory. I'm not referring to anyone who has taken the time to do their research properly; it's just that the standard instructions on most canister filters defy logic, and that's what some people go by, when they're just setting up a tank for the kids (i.e. me, a few years ago, for example).

What I'm saying is that there is a viable way to ensure your tank cycles waste into nitrogen gas, via the anaerobic cultures that develop inside the Biohome Ultimate. I believe this is a step in the right direction. I do perform water changes, but not to control nitrate or phosphate levels, because that part is taken care of. If I could afford a sump system, I would go down that route—I may in the future—but I feel that genuine advances in water maintenance are being made, then swept aside in favour of older methods. The anaerobic stage of the cycle which is being dubbed impossible is established inside my filter, and I don't understand why that's bothersome.

BAW said:

The anaerobic stage of the cycle which is being dubbed impossible is established inside my filter, and I don't understand why that's bothersome.

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Because your results are no better than using sponge filter media and doing large regular water changes so I don't know why that is advanced or why people would want to pay for it?

And because we still haven't solved the problem of the dying fish.

Naughts said:

Because your results are no better than using sponge filter media and doing large regular water changes so I don't know why that is advanced or why people would want to pay for it?

And because we still haven't solved the problem of the dying fish.

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Well, we can agree to disagree on our chosen filtration solutions, but you're right: we still haven't solved the issue of the dead fish.

What is most curious is that the majority of the fish—including the ones that died—have been playful and active, eating well, and socialising normally. I love the different varieties of cory; I have a Tetra APS 400 rigged up to a dome in the corner of the tank, and many of the fish play in the stream of bubbles for hours at a time, especially corys and otos.

After we lost the two Rams, the only fish I've ever thought were looking poorly were Cardinals or Neons. There has definitely been some aggression, judging by the results, but never overt. I hardly ever see the Clown Plec, unless I throw in an algae wafer late in the evening, the Rainbowfish and Flying Foxes are active and behaving as expected. The most peculiar casualty, to my mind, was the one Flying Fox, a few mornings ago (I've lost count). It wasn't a small specimen, it looked healthy other than being lifeless, and I'm assuming it must have died fairly recently, since it's not usually long at all before the eyes go, and then other soft bits.

And one of the deaths did look like direct aggression: the largest Cardinal, about an inch in length, was face-planted in the main plant growth, with a torn stomach and no innards.

If the neon has cottonmouth, then columnaris is the overarching issue, isn't it? I don't know much about the treatments, but they feel like a severe step to take. When the water tests as it does, and it has had a partial water change, treatment seems like the remaining option, but I don't want to treat something which is not diagnosed.

My understanding of columnaris is that it kills faster and more widely than this.
What about the parameter swings due to adjusting the GH and KH?

Naughts said:

My understanding of columnaris is that it kills faster and more widely than this.
What about the parameter swings due to adjusting the GH and KH?

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I did that very gradually, over the space of a week or so. However, if it was an issue, I shouldn't lose any more fish.

Although that still leaves the Neon with the white growth on its mouth. Waterlife Myxazin keeps popping up, but I'm loathe to consider a 'broad spectrum bactericide' in a fish tank.

If c. flexibacter is routinely present, I don't understand the logic of trying to wipe it out. All the anti-fungus medications mention fin rot, which is certainly not a feature here.

I don't have the exprience to offer sound advice on disease issues, but as the Flying Fox was mentioned, I would point out the following behavioural issue.

Compatibility/Temperament: The Flying Fox is solitary in its habitat and thus should be kept singly in the aquarium; it is very territorial with its own kind and should be kept as a solitary specimen as it will attack its own kind, and will get more aggressive with age. Otherwise, it is a relatively peaceful fish that can be kept in a community of barbs, danios, gouramis, rasbora, and larger tetras. Substrate fish must be very carefully chosen, and even then the individual temperament of the subject fish may or may not tolerate them; catfish and any species in the related genera must be avoided. Near-substrate fish such as cichlids should not be housed with this species.

OK...I have been reading the posts...I still cannot fathom why the use of Melafix or the "cure all" from Interpet when you openly admit to not knowing why the fish perished

I have strongly suggested you quit with Melafix as that will suffocate the three Gourami due to the unrefined tea tree oil demolishing their labrynth organs, you should also quit with the Interpet "cure all" since that is basically a sales ploy...very few, if any medications actually "cure all", they just make things worse for the fist that are not suffering any ill health and make those that are arrive at death's door that bit quicker when you have no definitive diagnoses

The water change argument...to me, I do not give a rats behind as to what filtration is used....water changes in an enclosed glass box are an absolute essential weekly job. The good bacteria is NOT in your water, you will NOT lose good bacteria with a 50% or more water change every single week. You won't lose good bacteria with a 50% or more water change every day.....but you will equalise your water chemistry and dilute any bad water chemistry issues and any medical issues due to bugs in the water which kill fish

The maker of that filter media will push its benefits, he developed it, he earns good money from it but it is by no means the be all and end all of aquarium filtration....you have dead/dying fish, you have a very patchy maintenance schedule and you have, quite bluntly, a really bad fish mix/ratio and you can have the world's best by far filtration in the world but it ain't going to mean a thing when your fish are incompatible, have the wrong sexing ratio and are in the wrong numbers....with a poor maintenance routine to boot.

From what I can gather you did a fish in cycle which is a disaster waiting to happen, you have fixated on that filtration when you should be looking at the bigger picture here.

You have to get into a proper maintenance routine. But tbh if this was my aquarium it would be daily 65% water changes for the next 10 days to get rid of all of the nasties that will have contributed to the fish deaths and medical issues. Teasting every day whilst doing those water changes. I would go back to basics on the filtration (as in stop listening to the sales generated hype and get basic, tried and tested media). Throw away all those bottles of Melafix and other "cure all" stuff. Once the water is properly maintained, then start weekly 50% minimum water changes, weekly substrate cleaning, weekly cleaning of filter media in old aquarium water removed during water change and only replace the media when it is literally disintegrating in your fingers. The filter canister can be washed out monthly, again with removed aquarium water NOT tap water.

You have done your best for these fish but now you truly need to step away from the hype of the filter and get down to doing things the right way otherwise you are going to continue losing fish. Get the Gourami ratio sorted, return some of the Flying Foxes and get into a proper routine.

I haven't used the Melafix for weeks, it was just something that someone on another forum had success with, so I gave it a try. Now that you've told me how it affects the Gourami, I certainly won't be using it again. Similarly, when I suspected infection, I sought advice and the Interpet solution was suggested, since it is relatively mild. Since it had no effect, I did another water change and decided to go online for advice.

Since then, I appreciate a lot of what those who have contributed have said, but I also think you've made a few assumptions. I don't know why you think I did a fish in cycle, or why you still mention Melafix. I'm also a bit puzzled by the suggestion to 'go back to basics' and get 'tried and tested media'. I appreciate the importance of water changes, just not as a means of controlling nitrates, but are you suggesting I replace the media which is currently running the cycle in my tank?

As to the Gourami mix, I didn't choose it. I started with four juveniles, and only one ever showed any signs of being male. When one of the females was rejected by the others, I returned it to the lfs, thinking I had 1M, 2F left. One of the males was a late starter, which gave me the ratio I have now. As soon as I can determine which male will have to go, the lfs are ready to accept it.

On the Siamese Flying Fox, I followed the following information: 'This species is best maintained either singly or in groups of 5 or more of its own kind. Smaller sized groups may result in territorial squabbling.' Based on that, I bought six (the lfs sell them singly or in groups of six), but I'm down to four because of the current issue. They are a variety of sizes, and seem to get along, but it looks like I'll have to either bolster their numbers or reduce them to one.

On the overall issue, there has been a development. Three of the Elegant Corys now have patches on top of their heads. I'd noticed this on one of them before, but it looked like it could have been part of its skin, it was so pale. On two of the three, the patch is turning a reddish colour. It's not raised, just discoloured, and it appears smooth. They seem happy otherwise. Does anyone know what this points to?

BAW said:

On the overall issue, there has been a development. Three of the Elegant Corys now have patches on top of their heads. I'd noticed this on one of them before, but it looked like it could have been part of its skin, it was so pale. On two of the three, the patch is turning a reddish colour. It's not raised, just discoloured, and it appears smooth. They seem happy otherwise. Does anyone know what this points to?

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Probably excess mucous caused by something irritating them. If fish get a cream or white film over their entire body it is usually excess mucous caused by something in the water (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, wrong pH or chemicals like plant fertiliser or medications).

If they get cream, white or grey patches on their body it is normally excess mucous over irritated areas caused by external protozoan parasites.

Red patches on the body is normally bacterial infections.

Post pictures of sick and healthy fish so we have more idea of what is affecting them.

I'd post pictures if they'd stay still long enough. It's made even more difficult by the angle of the glass.
The marks are small, and only on their heads. The rest of their bodies look immaculate.

I managed to get a couple of low quality pictures of the Elegants, one with magnification.

The white mark on the Corydoras could be a wound from rubbing on something or the start of fungus. If it has been like that for a few days and not gotten worse, it's probably missing skin and should heal up by itself. If it gets worse then it could be excess mucous or fungus. Clean water and salt should fix that.

A few more fish have gone, standard water parameters (NO2, NO3, NH4, PO4) have remained ideal as far as test-tube tests can tell, and no amount of dilution seems to slow the gradual progress of whatever is at large. Neon with cottonmouth-like appearance still going strong, but a few of his friends have gone. Something pale in colour is still present in patches on certain corydoras, starting to see the same on full grown Emerald Brochis.

Started treatment with Myxazin today, as it seems most appropriate option out of what is available and what has been recommended. Here’s hoping.