Help Reading This Ph And Loss Of Fish After Water Changes

I see something here which I cannot explain, maybe Steven can.  I am wondering why the GH and KH of the source water is so much lower in the aquarium.  The source water appears to be very hard (300 ppm = 16 dGH), and in the aquarium it is soft (75 ppm = 4 dGH).  I cannot fathom any way this could occur in the tank.  Biological processes and plants cannot possibly remove this much mineral in weeks or months.  Which makes me wonder what is the source of the high GH.  The fact that the pH seems so ready to lower parallels the lower GH/KH which makes sense, but that doesn't explain the GH/KH aspect.
 
On the KH, this is not strictly speaking your issue, but it is a part of the overall issue.  And yes, hardness is the amount of dissolved mineral in the water, primarily calcium and magnesium plus sometimes a few others but they are minimal.  The KH is the amount of carbonate and bicarbonate ions in the water, and these ions are the salts of carbonic acid.  This is why the KH acts to "buffer" pH, preventing it from fluctuating from the level it is at in the water to start with.

Byron said:

I see something here which I cannot explain, maybe Steven can.  I am wondering why the GH and KH of the source water is so much lower in the aquarium.  The source water appears to be very hard (300 ppm = 16 dGH), and in the aquarium it is soft (75 ppm = 4 dGH).  I cannot fathom any way this could occur in the tank.  Biological processes and plants cannot possibly remove this much mineral in weeks or months.  Which makes me wonder what is the source of the high GH.  The fact that the pH seems so ready to lower parallels the lower GH/KH which makes sense, but that doesn't explain the GH/KH aspect.
 
On the KH, this is not strictly speaking your issue, but it is a part of the overall issue.  And yes, hardness is the amount of dissolved mineral in the water, primarily calcium and magnesium plus sometimes a few others but they are minimal.  The KH is the amount of carbonate and bicarbonate ions in the water, and these ions are the salts of carbonic acid.  This is why the KH acts to "buffer" pH, preventing it from fluctuating from the level it is at in the water to start with.

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Well all the wind just came out of my sails.  
 
Darn it!  I had such HIGH hopes that you'd say "this is great progress and I feel confident in saying this, that and whatnot are the way to your tank running very well from here on out".
 
I should have known better.
 
I might have an idea ...or a theory as to why the tank levels are much lower than the source water:
 
1.  The source water has recently been buffered when the well guys came out and put new crushed coral and chlorine in the blue bullet.  
I have to imagine that the minerals and such were very depleated if they needed to add as much crushed coral as they added.  
Also when I'd tested the tap water before they came out I was getting a reading of 6.0-6.4 (that was 8-27-16).
2.  After that debacle I bought RO water and did about a 25% water change (before I knew you had to add minerals).  
I didn't do a w/c for two full weeks because I was afraid (but I was testing all along and all of my levels were fine, nothing spiked at all).  
When I finally did w/c I did RO mixed with some treated Tap water that had tested ph of 7.6 (oddly) so I thought it could aid in bringing the PH up.
 
So...would the RO and possibly prior water changes (that the PH might have been in low 6's) be enough to make the readings as low as we're seeing?
 
I must be one heck of a thorn in your side Byron...sorry!
 
Oh and one more side note:  keep in mind my tank is a JUNGLE!  My plants are insane and I have to trim them every other week...a lot!  
 
Oh and Mark, I'm thinking of getting a lab coat...just to make it more official.
And make me look smarter
I'm super glad to hear you're learning a little something out of this mess.  I am too but man, it's tough!

 
might have an idea ...or a theory as to why the tank levels are much lower than the source water:
 
1.  The source water has recently been buffered when the well guys came out and put new crushed coral and chlorine in the blue bullet.  
I have to imagine that the minerals and such were very depleated if they needed to add as much crushed coral as they added.  
Also when I'd tested the tap water before they came out I was getting a reading of 6.0-6.4 (that was 8-27-16).
2.  After that debacle I bought RO water and did about a 25% water change (before I knew you had to add minerals).  
I didn't do a w/c for two full weeks because I was afraid (but I was testing all along and all of my levels were fine, nothing spiked at all).  
When I finally did w/c I did RO mixed with some treated Tap water that had tested ph of 7.6 (oddly) so I thought it could aid in bringing the PH up.
 
So...would the RO and possibly prior water changes (that the PH might have been in low 6's) be enough to make the readings as low as we're seeing?
 
I must be one heck of a thorn in your side Byron...sorry!
 
Oh and one more side note:  keep in mind my tank is a JUNGLE!  My plants are insane and I have to trim them every other week...a lot!  
 
 

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RO water will reduce GH, KH, and PH.  your tank readings are consistent with RO.  but I wasn't expecting it to be quite this low.  After all you didn't replace all the water in the tank with RO.  You have tested the water from the blue water conditioner (tap water).  From your earlier posts you have the capability to sample the well water directly before the blue water conditioner delivers it to the tap.  If that is correct I would test the well water before it is conditioned.  Also put the tap water in a bucket  and monitor it.  I  would be helpful to see how GH, KH, and PH change as it did in your earlier experiment when the PH went from very low to to what was it,,,, 7.6.
 
Your conditioned water is now GH300 with a PH of 7.6.  i didn't think it would go anywhere close to this H number.  your tap water may currently be saturated with calcium and magnesium from the crushed coral in the blue conditioner.  Your well water must have an amazingly low PH to do this.  I have read naturally carbonated water can have a PH of 4.  if we are close to that it might explain what is happening.  if the water is saturated with calcium and magnesium the GH might  drop after a few days. And that may push the PH up (I think).  I wonder if your fish suffered a GH and KH shock when you did the water change with RO.
 
We will need to know how your GH300 tap water evolves over time.  we will have to be careful before we do another water change.  We may have to slowly adjust the water in the tank slowly before going back to tap water.  or we might have to stay with RO.  Your well water is probably loaded with minerals other than calcium and magnesium due to it's acidic nature That might explain why your plants are doing so well.  

StevenF said:

 
might have an idea ...or a theory as to why the tank levels are much lower than the source water:
 
1.  The source water has recently been buffered when the well guys came out and put new crushed coral and chlorine in the blue bullet.  
I have to imagine that the minerals and such were very depleated if they needed to add as much crushed coral as they added.  
Also when I'd tested the tap water before they came out I was getting a reading of 6.0-6.4 (that was 8-27-16).
2.  After that debacle I bought RO water and did about a 25% water change (before I knew you had to add minerals).  
I didn't do a w/c for two full weeks because I was afraid (but I was testing all along and all of my levels were fine, nothing spiked at all).  
When I finally did w/c I did RO mixed with some treated Tap water that had tested ph of 7.6 (oddly) so I thought it could aid in bringing the PH up.
 
So...would the RO and possibly prior water changes (that the PH might have been in low 6's) be enough to make the readings as low as we're seeing?
 
I must be one heck of a thorn in your side Byron...sorry!
 
Oh and one more side note:  keep in mind my tank is a JUNGLE!  My plants are insane and I have to trim them every other week...a lot!  
 
 

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RO water will reduce GH, KH, and PH.  your tank readings are consistent with RO.  but I wasn't expecting it to be quite this low.  After all you didn't replace all the water in the tank with RO.  You have tested the water from the blue water conditioner (tap water).  From your earlier posts you have the capability to sample the well water directly before the blue water conditioner delivers it to the tap.  If that is correct I would test the well water before it is conditioned.  Also put the tap water in a bucket  and monitor it.  I  would be helpful to see how GH, KH, and PH change as it did in your earlier experiment when the PH went from very low to to what was it,,,, 7.6.
 
Your conditioned water is now GH300 with a PH of 7.6.  i didn't think it would go anywhere close to this H number.  your tap water may currently be saturated with calcium and magnesium from the crushed coral in the blue conditioner.  Your well water must have an amazingly low PH to do this.  I have read naturally carbonated water can have a PH of 4.  if we are close to that it might explain what is happening.  if the water is saturated with calcium and magnesium the GH might  drop after a few days. And that may push the PH up (I think).  I wonder if your fish suffered a GH and KH shock when you did the water change with RO.
 
We will need to know how your GH300 tap water evolves over time.  we will have to be careful before we do another water change.  We may have to slowly adjust the water in the tank slowly before going back to tap water.  or we might have to stay with RO.  Your well water is probably loaded with minerals other than calcium and magnesium due to it's acidic nature That might explain why your plants are doing so well.  

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I actually feel like I'm starting to understand a lot more than I did a few months back so I really appreciate all of this great information and help!

Luckily I still have the tap water that I tested Wednesday. It's in a gallon pitcher and it's been sitting out since Tuesday evening.

I will retest this same water either tonight or tomorrow (depending on my time available)

I will also shut down the connection to the bullet so that I can test water directly from the well and test that too. How long should I let the water run to make sure it's coming from well and not whatever was in pipes?

I will be back soon with more test results!!!


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I will also shut down the connection to the bullet so that I can test water directly from the well and test that too. How long should I let the water run to make sure it's coming from well and not whatever was in pipes?

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the water will initially be at about room or outside air temperature.  The well however will be quite cool.  So I would let it run until you feel a temperature drop.

StevenF said:

 
 I will also shut down the connection to the bullet so that I can test water directly from the well and test that too. How long should I let the water run to make sure it's coming from well and not whatever was in pipes?

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the water will initially be at about room or outside air temperature.  The well however will be quite cool.  So I would let it run until you feel a temperature drop.

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Perfect!! Thanks!


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StevenF said:

 

 
might have an idea ...or a theory as to why the tank levels are much lower than the source water:
 
1.  The source water has recently been buffered when the well guys came out and put new crushed coral and chlorine in the blue bullet.  
I have to imagine that the minerals and such were very depleated if they needed to add as much crushed coral as they added.  
Also when I'd tested the tap water before they came out I was getting a reading of 6.0-6.4 (that was 8-27-16).
2.  After that debacle I bought RO water and did about a 25% water change (before I knew you had to add minerals).  
I didn't do a w/c for two full weeks because I was afraid (but I was testing all along and all of my levels were fine, nothing spiked at all).  
When I finally did w/c I did RO mixed with some treated Tap water that had tested ph of 7.6 (oddly) so I thought it could aid in bringing the PH up.
 
So...would the RO and possibly prior water changes (that the PH might have been in low 6's) be enough to make the readings as low as we're seeing?
 
I must be one heck of a thorn in your side Byron...sorry!
 
Oh and one more side note:  keep in mind my tank is a JUNGLE!  My plants are insane and I have to trim them every other week...a lot!  
 
 

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RO water will reduce GH, KH, and PH.  your tank readings are consistent with RO.  but I wasn't expecting it to be quite this low.  After all you didn't replace all the water in the tank with RO.  You have tested the water from the blue water conditioner (tap water).  From your earlier posts you have the capability to sample the well water directly before the blue water conditioner delivers it to the tap.  If that is correct I would test the well water before it is conditioned.  Also put the tap water in a bucket  and monitor it.  I  would be helpful to see how GH, KH, and PH change as it did in your earlier experiment when the PH went from very low to to what was it,,,, 7.6.
 
Your conditioned water is now GH300 with a PH of 7.6.  i didn't think it would go anywhere close to this H number.  your tap water may currently be saturated with calcium and magnesium from the crushed coral in the blue conditioner.  Your well water must have an amazingly low PH to do this.  I have read naturally carbonated water can have a PH of 4.  if we are close to that it might explain what is happening.  if the water is saturated with calcium and magnesium the GH might  drop after a few days. And that may push the PH up (I think).  I wonder if your fish suffered a GH and KH shock when you did the water change with RO.
 
We will need to know how your GH300 tap water evolves over time.  we will have to be careful before we do another water change.  We may have to slowly adjust the water in the tank slowly before going back to tap water.  or we might have to stay with RO.  Your well water is probably loaded with minerals other than calcium and magnesium due to it's acidic nature That might explain why your plants are doing so well.  
 

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Ok... I retested the tap that I tested three days ago with the Tetra 6 in 1 strips.
 
It's now been sitting out for four days.
The only difference is the GH seemed to drop a little.
I'm guessing it to be around 200 as it looked to be inbetween 150-300
 
Also tested the water directly from the well, bypassing the bullet containing the buffers.
 
 
Tap sitting out 4 days (run thru the bullet):                                   Fresh Well water (shut valves to bullet)
 
PH = 7.5                                                                                       PH = 6.2
KH = 80                                                                                        KH = 0
chlorine = 0                                                                                  chlorine = 0
GH = 200                                                                                     GH = between 25-75 (50)
Nitrite = 0                                                                                     Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 10                                                                                  Nitrate = 10
 
All levels that were suspected were lower....but low enough that my tank readings make sense?

And a clip board. Get a clip board also when you get your lab coat!
 
It seems to me fish keeping was so much simpler when I was a kid and didn't know anything (but thought I did). But, I guess my fish didn't live as long!
 
I have to get one of those kits and start learning what you're learning. It is good that there are such knowledgeable guys on here that are willing to help and know how.
 
MZ

From your latest numbers (post #112) I would conclude that your well water is very soft. The rise in GH/KH/pH is thus due to the minerals/chemicals in the blue bullett.  And from earlier numbers in the tank, these values lower after a time.  From this I would use water from the well, not what has passed through the apparatus, and stay with soft water fish.  Makes life simple.  If you continue to use the adjusted water, it will be continual problems with fluctuating GH/KH/pH and this is not good for any fish.
 
You don't need to mess with RO, using water directly from the well.

Byron said:

From your latest numbers (post #112) I would conclude that your well water is very soft. The rise in GH/KH/pH is thus due to the minerals/chemicals in the blue bullett.  And from earlier numbers in the tank, these values lower after a time.  From this I would use water from the well, not what has passed through the apparatus, and stay with soft water fish.  Makes life simple.  If you continue to use the adjusted water, it will be continual problems with fluctuating GH/KH/pH and this is not good for any fish.
 
You don't need to mess with RO, using water directly from the well.

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 Ok that sounds like a great plan, although I do have a few remaining endlers that I'll have to keep comfortable.
 
My question to your solution is:  isn't the KH of zero a problem (inability to buffer)?  Even for soft water fish?!  
If I did go with my soft well water...would I have to add anything?  Prime?
 
Oh....and I'm due for a waterchange.  How do I go about this while I still have my endlers?  I still have RO...should I mix with Tap...or Well...or all three?!

My question to your solution is:  isn't the KH of zero a problem (inability to buffer)?  Even for soft water fish?!
 

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Not everyone will agree with me (I think), but I never worry about KH.  For over 20 years it has been zero in my many tanks.  I only keep soft water fish, many if not most are wild caught.  When I did have livebearers and rift lake cichlids back in the 1980's, I used a calcareous substrate to raise the GH/KH/pH.  In the 1990's I kept half a cup of dolomite in the filters of the 90g and 115g tanks, to maintain a pH around 6.4, but I gave this up and since 2005 I have never fussed with KH.  And with GH at about 7 ppm, less than 1 dGH, out of my tap, I do nothing to increase this.  Regular weekly partial water changes of 50-60% of the tank volume keep the tank's biology stable, along with proper stocking and such.  I have some tanks that run a pH below 5, others in the low 5's, and a couple in the low 6's.  I stock the species accordingly, as there are some that are best with a lower pH, like my 40g with all wild caught fish (False or Green neons, pencilfish, characidium, Carnegiella sp. hatchetfishes).
 
I was using Equilibrium in the larger tanks for a couple years to provide some mineral for the plants, but a marine biologist suggested discontinuing this (for specific reasons I won't get into) in 2015 and I have since used Flourish Tabs which have worked wonders, as the minerals to not get directly into the water column like they did with Equilibrium and liquid fertilizers.  I do still use Flourish Comprehensive, as little as necessary, and Flourish Trace sometimes, depending upon the tank and the fish/plants.
 

If I did go with my soft well water...would I have to add anything?  Prime?
 

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This is more difficult to answer.  First, if it were me, I would want a complete water analysis to show exactly what is in the well water.  I would assume from the GH/KH/pH that minerals are not an issue, but this is only a guess.  The treatment effected by the blue bullet machine would tend to confirm this, if it is safe to drink the treated water.
 
Nitrate is present at 10 ppm which is not bad in itself, but in an aquarium with fish you may have additional nitrates so you want to keep this as low as possible.
 
Prime detoxifies nitrate, by somehow binding it (same as for nitrite).  But this reverses according to Seachem, after 24-48 hours.  So using Prime is not going to have much benefit in this respect.  It certainly should not be used regularly as some sort of "treatment" for nitrate.  Any conditioner would probably be as good here, but may not be necessary at all.  And I am one who does not like to be adding substances without good reason, as they do all get inside fish.  I know conditioners if not overdosed are not going to kill the fish, but any additives to the tank water is still something to be avoided whenever possible.  I don't like Prime myself as it does so much that it not necessary for me, and the less interference with nature the better.

Byron said:

 

My question to your solution is:  isn't the KH of zero a problem (inability to buffer)?  Even for soft water fish?!
 

Click to expand...

 
Not everyone will agree with me (I think), but I never worry about KH.  For over 20 years it has been zero in my many tanks.  I only keep soft water fish, many if not most are wild caught.  When I did have livebearers and rift lake cichlids back in the 1980's, I used a calcareous substrate to raise the GH/KH/pH.  In the 1990's I kept half a cup of dolomite in the filters of the 90g and 115g tanks, to maintain a pH around 6.4, but I gave this up and since 2005 I have never fussed with KH.  And with GH at about 7 ppm, less than 1 dGH, out of my tap, I do nothing to increase this.  Regular weekly partial water changes of 50-60% of the tank volume keep the tank's biology stable, along with proper stocking and such.
 
Oh I forgot...I have a question about the GH.  I'm getting a reading of 25-75 from my well.  What does that mean in the terms that you just mentioned (ppm and dgh).  I remember the well guy telling me my hardness was a 4.  What the heck does that mean if my reading was 200-300 on the test strip (after buffered).  
 
 I have some tanks that run a pH below 5, others in the low 5's, and a couple in the low 6's.  I stock the species accordingly, as there are some that are best with a lower pH, like my 40g with all wild caught fish (False or Green neons, pencilfish, characidium, Carnegiella sp. hatchetfishes).
 
I was using Equilibrium in the larger tanks for a couple years to provide some mineral for the plants, but a marine biologist suggested discontinuing this (for specific reasons I won't get into) in 2015 and I have since used Flourish Tabs which have worked wonders, as the minerals to not get directly into the water column like they did with Equilibrium and liquid fertilizers.  I do still use Flourish Comprehensive, as little as necessary, and Flourish Trace sometimes, depending upon the tank and the fish/plants.
 
 
If I did go with my soft well water...would I have to add anything?  Prime?
 

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This is more difficult to answer.  First, if it were me, I would want a complete water analysis to show exactly what is in the well water.  I would assume from the GH/KH/pH that minerals are not an issue, but this is only a guess.  The treatment effected by the blue bullet machine would tend to confirm this, if it is safe to drink the treated water.
 
Nitrate is present at 10 ppm which is not bad in itself, but in an aquarium with fish you may have additional nitrates so you want to keep this as low as possible.
 
My nitrate never seems to budge...at all...ever.  I'm not sure if that is odd but it's always remained steady, as has the zero ammonia...even if there is a death (although anything that's died has been immediately consumed by my pig of an amano.  
 
Prime detoxifies nitrate, by somehow binding it (same as for nitrite).  But this reverses according to Seachem, after 24-48 hours.  So using Prime is not going to have much benefit in this respect.  It certainly should not be used regularly as some sort of "treatment" for nitrate.  Any conditioner would probably be as good here, but may not be necessary at all.  And I am one who does not like to be adding substances without good reason, as they do all get inside fish.  I know conditioners if not overdosed are not going to kill the fish, but any additives to the tank water is still something to be avoided whenever possible.  I don't like Prime myself as it does so much that it not necessary for me, and the less interference with nature the better.
 


I must say I'm a little scared but pretty excited to research and get some soft water nano fish as there are a few super cute ones out there.  
Not that I'm wishing death upon my poor little endlers that are ever in the wrong ph.
 
Any advice on how to do my next water change?
I have: RO, tap thru the bullet and straight well.  
My chems include: Prime, Flourish Comprehensive,  Quick Start, Natual Rapport Gravel Cleaner (beneficial bacteria)...I bought this a while ago when I stopped vaccuming the substrate because my plants took over and I no longer have any space to vaccuum.  And Crushed Coral (starts with an Ar...something).
 
I haven't done a water change in two weeks and my levels are steady and the tank is crystal clear.  Nothing is dirty or out of sorts.
 
I'm scared to death to shock anything.
 
Oh and what percentage of water change?

Hey Jen,
 
You may already know this, but on the Aquarium Center's website they list the new fish they get in every week.
 
http/www.aquariumcenter.biz/FreshFish.html
 
Just in case one of the nano fish you research turn up there. 
 
Mark

Oh I forgot...I have a question about the GH.  I'm getting a reading of 25-75 from my well.  What does that mean in the terms that you just mentioned (ppm and dgh).  I remember the well guy telling me my hardness was a 4.  What the heck does that mean if my reading was 200-300 on the test strip (after buffered).

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The 25-75 is most likely ppm, or mg/l which is the same.  It is unlike to be dGH as it would be liquid rock.  So 25-75 ppm is roughly 1 to 4 dGH.  You can change back and forth with 17.9, multiply dGH by 17.9 or divide ppm by 17.9 to get the equivalent.
 
The 200-300 ppm (again, this could not have been dGH) is roughly 13-17 dGH.  That's what both Steven and I thought odd, such a drop.  Obviously we know now that the bullet is increasing it, but it is not permanent in the tank.
 

My nitrate never seems to budge...at all...ever.  I'm not sure if that is odd but it's always remained steady, as has the zero ammonia...even if there is a death (although anything that's died has been immediately consumed by my pig of an amano.
 

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The nitrate of 10 ppm is in the source water from the well.  Usually this is due to agricultural runoff in the area.  It is not going to go down much at all unless you target it.  Someone like Michael (Abbeysdad) can explain this better as he has to deal with quite high nitrate in his source water.  Here I wouldn't worry as it is still low, but once you have fish, it probably will rise in the aquarium, so it should be monitored to see what may occur.
 
Nitrate occurring in the aquarium is caused by organics (same as in your well water).  Too many fish, too large fish (for the volume and biological system), overfeeding, insufficient water changes, not keeping the filter clean--all these increase organics which raises nitrates, or can, depending upon the quantity of organics.  Nitrates should be kept below 20 ppm.  Some fish begin to have issues with higher nitrates, but all fish are affected regardless.  This doesn't mean they will die, but they will be weakened the higher the nitrates and the longer they are exposed, and eventually death can occur.  Most agree that nitrates weaken fish, and along the way this means other issues which they should be able to fight off, will be more problematic.
 
Live plants help control nitrates.  The biggest impact is with substantial water changes and keeping the substrate and filter clean.  In other words, the more organics that are removed, the lower the nitrates should be.  Yopu ask about water change volumes...I would do at least half the tank volume, once a week.  I have been doing this for years.  So long as the parameters of the source water are much the same as the tank, this will not cause any issues and benefit the fish.
 
As for the Endlers now, I would use water from the well since we know it is relatively stable.  And use the aragonite (I assume this is the "crushed coral" you mentioned that started "ar") as it will add minerals to raise the GH and KH, and pH correspondingly.  Fine for the Endlers.  If you get rid of the Endlers (give them to someone, or whatever) and decide to go with soft water fish, stop the aragonite.  Several water changes will clear this out, but remove the substance itself.  So I wouldn't mix it in the substrate if you intend changing to soft water fish; for the present you can hang it in the tank or the filter, in a nylon bag or something, so the water flows through it.

 
From your latest numbers (post #112) I would conclude that your well water is very soft. The rise in GH/KH/pH is thus due to the minerals/chemicals in the blue bullett.  And from earlier numbers in the tank, these values lower after a time.  From this I would use water from the well, not what has passed through the apparatus, and stay with soft water fish.  Makes life simple.  If you continue to use the adjusted water, it will be continual problems with fluctuating GH/KH/pH and this is not good for any fish.
 
You don't need to mess with RO, using water directly from the well.

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Do not use the water directly from the well!
 
The Well PH reading is 6.2.  The water pegged the strip at it's lowest reading.  That means the PH is somewhere between 3 and 6.  The well water is very acidic and dangerous for your fish.
 
The blue bullet sends this acidic water through a bed of crushed coral which resolves due to the acid.  That dissolved coral pushes the GH up to 300 and after the CO2 or whatever the acid is evaporates the GH drops to 200 and the alkalinity goes to 80ppm.  
 
We still need to resolve the acid problem.  All the data from the strips does is it confirms that the well water is very acidic.
 
I will post more tomorrow.