Fluval Edge, No Cycle.....

MarcoPereira said:

Update: as of now, ammonia is 0, nitrite 0, nitrate not tested
I kind of expected ammo to be 0 as did do a 25% water change to try and remove some ammonia that I added and used Prime which I believe can throw results off... will try tomorrow night with another ammo reading....
 
And, the tank still looks very milky....hope that clears soon...what an eyesore.

Click to expand...

 
As there are no fish present, I would do major water changes to clear the water.  And by this I mean a full tank water change.  Use Prime to dechlorinate obviously, but nothing else.
 
By the way, on Prime and tests.  Some members have mentioned about test results being affected by Prime, but Prime is basically ineffective in 24-36 hours post use.  However, keep in mind that Prime detoxifies ammonia by changing it to ammonium, the relatively harmless form, and most ammonia test kits will show ammonia/ammonium as "ammonia."  The API does, which is the kit many of us use.  So while it shows "ammonia," it is (or could be) ammonium.
 
With respect to nitrite, Prime detoxifies this but only for 24-36 hours.  If nitrite is still present after this period, it will be toxic nitrite.  Seachem were clear in telling me this when I asked.
 
Byron.

Thanks Byron for the explanation. Will do another major water change asap. One thing, that manzanita I put in has a fluffy mold all over it now. It looks awful. How do I get rid of it? or, will it go away by itself? and should I start using Flourish at this stage?
Thank you.

MarcoPereira said:

Thanks Byron for the explanation. Will do another major water change asap. One thing, that manzanita I put in has a fluffy mold all over it now. It looks awful. How do I get rid of it? or, will it go away by itself? and should I start using Flourish at this stage?
Thank you.

Click to expand...

 
Yes on the Flourish, after you have finished the water changes (no point sucking it all out) and the tank is clear.
 
As for the white fluff, that is most likely a fungus.  Now, some fungus is safe, some is highly toxic.  I have had the latter, it appeared on a piece of what I believe is grapewood, and it kills fish.  So I am hesitant to say yay or nay here.  If you had some snails (the small ones like pond snails, bladder snails, Malaysian Livebearing Snails, all of which are ideal residents in an aquarium) they would likely eat this.  I have read of aquarists who let their plecos, etc eat it, others who scraped it off and boiled the wood, etc. trying to get rid of it.  Fungus can be within the wood (as opposed to what grows externally on bits of uneaten food), so this is hit and miss.
 
When I had the fungus issue, the water turned quite cloudy overnight, and my fish showed severe respiratory issues.  I removed the wood, did a major water change, end of problems.  I let the wood dry, then put it in another tank (no fish), it seemed OK so after 3 months, I put it back into another fish aquarium.  Didn't notice the fungus reappearing on the back side until the fish began dying.  I was speaking with another aquarist in a local store at that time, and he lost his corys to the same thing, fungus from wood.
 
So, fungus can be toxic or not, depending what it is, and there are many species; a microbiologist would be able to identify which.  Maybe post a photo here, and others can help?

Ok, did a full water change and added nothing except Prime. Water is nice and clear, well, as close as possible. The fungus is apparently natural and not harmful after reading a lot on the internet and part of wood that was cured, dried and then re wet again. Something to do with left over cellulose or something....mind you after your experience, I am a tad hesitant to know what the heck it is.
Could the water have gone cloudy due to the new wood? hopefully it dissipates as after all that, would hate to be doing full water changes every two days.
Sorry about the drama with your fungus problem, what a heartbreak.
Will add Flourish mid week, let the tank just settle for now.
 
PS: I have a bag of Purigen, will that help at all at this time? I thought of using it as opposed to activated charcoal...your thoughts?

I would want that fungus to clear up (i.e., be completely gone) before I introduced any fish.  Snails as I mentioned should help.  This might be related to the ammonia business, I can't say.
 
Normally, I do not use any sort of chemical filtration, meaning carbon, purigen, and similar products.  The plants will handle things, along with regular water changes (weekly).  It is however sometimes useful to use chemical filtration for initial issues.  Carbon is probably the better here, but remember that it does become full as it adsorbs (I meant adsorb, not absorb) stuff and needs to be replaced.  Purigen is said to be renewable.  I tend to view all these things as money-wasters, and they certainly are not necessary all else being good.  But as you have it, yo might as well use it, it may help clear things up.

Byron said:

I would want that fungus to clear up (i.e., be completely gone) before I introduced any fish.  Snails as I mentioned should help.  This might be related to the ammonia business, I can't say.
 
Normally, I do not use any sort of chemical filtration, meaning carbon, purigen, and similar products.  The plants will handle things, along with regular water changes (weekly).  It is however sometimes useful to use chemical filtration for initial issues.  Carbon is probably the better here, but remember that it does become full as it adsorbs (I meant adsorb, not absorb) stuff and needs to be replaced.  Purigen is said to be renewable.  I tend to view all these things as money-wasters, and they certainly are not necessary all else being good.  But as you have it, yo might as well use it, it may help clear things up.

Click to expand...

 
 
Thanks Byron. Have added one ramshorn snail from the pond....see what he gets up to. Feel sorry for him in acidic water though, so hence have not added more than one. Will try out purigen and see what happens....can't hurt right?
Let's just hope this stringy white mold stuff clears up soon....it looks like one of those B grade horror ghost houses....cobwebs all over! lol

Hello Byron. This is going to sound very dumb after all your input and teachings but I am a tad confused...I wonder if you can clarify something. 
Apparently I am doing a silent cycle right? so when I test the water all parameters should be 0 yes? and if they remain as such due to not adding ammonia sources when does one actually start to introduce the livestock?
Sorry, this bit is what is confusing to me. Do I wait a month or so or do it when everything is zero?
Since I am adding new plants this weekend  and removed the Vall, would this have thrown things off kilter? have a lot of floating wood gunk at the moment so will have to wait for that to clear or should I do major water change as well as adding plants?
Have added a few more leaves and will test Ph and advise, along with other readings/
Thank you and sorry again for ridiculous questions.

MarcoPereira said:

Hello Byron. This is going to sound very dumb after all your input and teachings but I am a tad confused...I wonder if you can clarify something. 
Apparently I am doing a silent cycle right? so when I test the water all parameters should be 0 yes? and if they remain as such due to not adding ammonia sources when does one actually start to introduce the livestock?
Sorry, this bit is what is confusing to me. Do I wait a month or so or do it when everything is zero?
Since I am adding new plants this weekend  and removed the Vall, would this have thrown things off kilter? have a lot of floating wood gunk at the moment so will have to wait for that to clear or should I do major water change as well as adding plants?
Have added a few more leaves and will test Ph and advise, along with other readings/
Thank you and sorry again for ridiculous questions.

Click to expand...

 
Questions are never ridiculous.  You were not initially doing a silent cycle, because you added ammonia.  So now you need to be certain that all this added ammonia has been used.  You do not want to be adding fish if ammonia is above zero.  Nitrite must also be zero obviously.  [Are either testing above zero now?]
 
If ammonia or nitrite tests show either, do water changes now to get rid of whichever.  Then let the tank sit for a few days, test daily for ammonia and nitrite, and if both continually read zero, you are OK to add the first fish.  I suggested floating plants in the other thread, and I always make sure I have a good cover of these; they are incredible ammonia sinks [being at the surface, they can assimilate CO2 from the air so this is plentiful, and obviously light is good--result is fast-growing plants needing more nutrients like ammonia.  With floating plants you will not have any issues.  As long as your pH remains acidic ammonia is not really an issue anyway, as it is ammonium which is basically harmless to fish, but it is best to be cautious.
 
Byron.

Well, after all this I decided to add 10 cherry shrimp to the tank....what a heartbreak. They stopped moving around after about 2 hours and this morning found 3 dead and the others are nowhere to be seen....I assume dead too.
Tank has all readings at 0 and a Ph of 6.4 with a temp of 25.5.
I added them as thought they had a low bio load and will not affect the filter to much but alas, my fears are prevalent. I wonder if I will ever have any livestock in this tank? yes, some will say that the tank has not cycled, but tried everything to get it up and running with the silent cycle method and it seems my water is poison....have to say, very disheartened about all this fish in aquarium stuff and as most beginners, feel like running for the hills and just having it as a planted tank...
Sorry to vent on here as I know it is a forum, not a chat room, but just wanted to share my first set back and seeing those lifeless little bodies is a real heartbreak.
Any advice apart "tank not cycled" I can take on board? remember, even if I wanted to cycle this tank with ammonia, that is not available here and have to rely on fish in method or fish food and dead shrimp, (come to think of it, I have the dead shrimp already!).
Cheers everyone.
 
PS I did re scape it as Vall died off, so we bought more java fern and an echinodorus to fill in the gaps. Did a 25% water change and then added prime and stability to get shrimp off in good water....but, not to be.

This is not at all likely to be an issue related to the cycling itself.  For one thing, in this much water (for the shrimp), ammonia would not increase from zero to a level to kill the shrimp in just two hours.  And your test shows ammonia at zero anyway.  Plus, in acidic water, ammonia changes into the ammonium ion form and is basically harmless.  So, this is not a cycling issue.
 
Second possible is the GH and pH, but I would discount these here.  Some shrimp need moderately hard water (for the calcium necessary for their exoskeletons), but there are shrimp than manage in softer water.  I have next to no experience with shrimp, but my research indicates that the red cherry shrimp do well in soft and slightly acidic water, so again they would be very unlikely to be dead in so short a time.
 
That leaves us with some toxin in the water.  Copper can kill shrimp, and this can leech from water pipes though usually only when these are fairly new.  Copper in medications can kill shrimp, but you haven't used any (that you've mentioned anyway).  Plant fertilizers such as Flourish Comprehensive contain copper, but the level in these are not sufficient to harm invertebrates unless they are over-dosed.  You mention nothing of these.  
 
So that brings me to that white fungus-like stuff; did you manage to get rid of all of this, and then do full tank water changes?  And related, there could have been something toxic in the dead-shrimp/water you added that might have seeped into the wood especially.
 
Byron.

Byron said:

This is not at all likely to be an issue related to the cycling itself.  For one thing, in this much water (for the shrimp), ammonia would not increase from zero to a level to kill the shrimp in just two hours.  And your test shows ammonia at zero anyway.  Plus, in acidic water, ammonia changes into the ammonium ion form and is basically harmless.  So, this is not a cycling issue.
 
Second possible is the GH and pH, but I would discount these here.  Some shrimp need moderately hard water (for the calcium necessary for their exoskeletons), but there are shrimp than manage in softer water.  I have next to no experience with shrimp, but my research indicates that the red cherry shrimp do well in soft and slightly acidic water, so again they would be very unlikely to be dead in so short a time.
 
That leaves us with some toxin in the water.  Copper can kill shrimp, and this can leech from water pipes though usually only when these are fairly new.  Copper in medications can kill shrimp, but you haven't used any (that you've mentioned anyway).  Plant fertilizers such as Flourish Comprehensive contain copper, but the level in these are not sufficient to harm invertebrates unless they are over-dosed.  You mention nothing of these.  
 
So that brings me to that white fungus-like stuff; did you manage to get rid of all of this, and then do full tank water changes?  And related, there could have been something toxic in the dead-shrimp/water you added that might have seeped into the wood especially.
 
Byron.

Click to expand...

 
 
Hi Byron. Well, the last surviving shrimp is out this morning... there were two or three last night, but found a dead one already. I added 1 ml of Flourish after introducing shrimp, I cleaned all the wood with Hydrogen Peroxide and soaked it in a bucket with hot water and the peroxide also. I then sun dried the wood before adding plants to it and then put in aquarium. As far, no more fungus.
Did not do a full water change, only about 25%, No meds and no other additives... or any more ammonia water. Added some java moss from pond which i rinsed very well and added some almond leaf bits and an oak leaf both of which had been pre boiled. Purigen is in filter also.
I drip acclimated them for 15 minutes as lfs said to, maybe in hindsight, should have been more likely and hour. Could that have been it? they got shock?

MarcoPereira said:

 

This is not at all likely to be an issue related to the cycling itself.  For one thing, in this much water (for the shrimp), ammonia would not increase from zero to a level to kill the shrimp in just two hours.  And your test shows ammonia at zero anyway.  Plus, in acidic water, ammonia changes into the ammonium ion form and is basically harmless.  So, this is not a cycling issue.
 
Second possible is the GH and pH, but I would discount these here.  Some shrimp need moderately hard water (for the calcium necessary for their exoskeletons), but there are shrimp than manage in softer water.  I have next to no experience with shrimp, but my research indicates that the red cherry shrimp do well in soft and slightly acidic water, so again they would be very unlikely to be dead in so short a time.
 
That leaves us with some toxin in the water.  Copper can kill shrimp, and this can leech from water pipes though usually only when these are fairly new.  Copper in medications can kill shrimp, but you haven't used any (that you've mentioned anyway).  Plant fertilizers such as Flourish Comprehensive contain copper, but the level in these are not sufficient to harm invertebrates unless they are over-dosed.  You mention nothing of these.  
 
So that brings me to that white fungus-like stuff; did you manage to get rid of all of this, and then do full tank water changes?  And related, there could have been something toxic in the dead-shrimp/water you added that might have seeped into the wood especially.
 
Byron.

Click to expand...

 
 
Hi Byron. Well, the last surviving shrimp is out this morning... there were two or three last night, but found a dead one already. I added 1 ml of Flourish after introducing shrimp, I cleaned all the wood with Hydrogen Peroxide and soaked it in a bucket with hot water and the peroxide also. I then sun dried the wood before adding plants to it and then put in aquarium. As far, no more fungus.
Did not do a full water change, only about 25%, No meds and no other additives... or any more ammonia water. Added some java moss from pond which i rinsed very well and added some almond leaf bits and an oak leaf both of which had been pre boiled. Purigen is in filter also.
I drip acclimated them for 15 minutes as lfs said to, maybe in hindsight, should have been more likely and hour. Could that have been it? they got shock?
 

Click to expand...

 
I wouldn't think shock from your acclimation, but again I will leave this for the members more experienced with shrimp.
 
I would do a complete water change, not 25%.  Thik of it mathematically...something is in the water, obviously, to cause such massive quick deaths.  Removing 25% of the water is only cutting this by 1/4, so 3/4 remains.  We don't know what this substance may be, but the aim should be to remove all or as much as possible, hence a complete water change.
 
Was the hydrogen peroxide used before these deaths?  I personally would use nothing but water, boiling is fine, on wood.  Any liquid substance will be absorbed into the wood, and there is no way to know when or how fast it will leech out.
 
There is also of course the wood itself.  We've no idea where this came from (originally, I mean).  To illustrate.  In 1997 my fish in one tank slowly became lethargic.  The corys eventually just sat on leaves or wood, respirating very rapidly.  Any new fish died usually overnight.  I went through this for several weeks, testing everything imaginable, and doing the most time-consuming and fussy water changes.  Nothing helped.  Tests showed nothing.  Finally I contacted a hobbyist who happened to be the Curator of Freshwater Fish at the Vancouver Aquarium.  His first suggestion was copper, but tests proved nil.  Then he turned to the wood.  I won't detail the procedure used, but the end result was that some toxic substance (never did find out what) had been leeching from one or more of the chunks of wood.  I tossed all the wood out, did a major cleaning, new filter media--and end of problem.  It never returned.  Point with this is that it is not always easy to find the source of trouble, which is why we test for everything we can, do major water changes, examine all additives, etc.
 
In your situation, I would be concerned over the dead-shrimp ammonia, and the white slime/fungus on the wood.  I previously told you about my experience with wood fungus.  I have lots of wood in my tanks, but twice it has been the issue.  Of course, there may be something else we're missing here.  If you still have live shrimp that have been removed, and they remain alive and appear OK wherever they are now, it would confirm something is in the water or the hardscape.
 
Byron.

Hello Byron. The peroxide was done before adding shrimp... Come to think of it, I did read that peroxide takes up to 24 hours to turn into plain oxygen so maybe it was toxic even after drying in the sun..there is only a small amount of that mould left... All other wood is clear. Not sure what to think... Will water change on weekend. There are still 2 shrimp swimming around as of this morning... Will see when I get home.. If all is well then we know our culprit.

If your shrimp died you really need to check your GH and KH values.  Hi or Low KH values can kill shrimp.  last time I read of someone loosing shrimp that fast,  KH was  later found to be around 300ppm.    Fungus or bacteria can also kill shrimp those would take a lot more time than the two hours it took to kill your shrimp.  

Thanks Steven... But not sure of KH... Have not got test kit for that... Would have thought having lower Ph then KH would be low? I assume GH would be low too?