Cycling Advice Please

vrob · Aug 4, 2014

Hello, I'm rather new to fish keeping and the TFF. I started my first tank about 2-3 months ago. It is a 26 gallon bow front with an aqueon quite flow 30 filter and a standard LFS recommended heater (forgot the brand).

Due to my ignorance and bad advice from my LFS I'm struggling through a pretty heavy stocked fish-in cycling process that seems like it's going nowhere. When I got everything for the tank someone at my LFS said to "set it up, wait 2-3 weeks, and come back for your fish". I took a water sample in and they said "looks good" and sold me my fish. After reading posts on this forum along with other research about the nitrogen cycle I'm not sure why he works there lol. \

I'll try to provide as much detail as i can so please let me know if i leave anything relevant out.
To Summarize: This tank has been cycling for almost 3 months now and i have NEVER seen a nitrite or nitrate reading.

Tap water: Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate - all 0ppm. PH- 7.0

Tank: PH- 7.0ppm (very consistent). Ammonia- goes up 0.25ppm daily (doing daily 25% PWC to keep it below 0.25). Nitrite/Nitrate- 0ppm
Chemicals: Prime water conditioner and Tetra safe start

I have read a few posts here and there that say frequent water changes slow the cycle but i've also seen a few that say it doesn't. I don't really like the idea of making the fish suffer or "cycle sacrifices" so I plan on keeping the ammonia to a minimum even if it takes longer to cycle.

One thing i've tried was I bought an "active" filter from angelsplus.com and I saw good results for 2 or 3 days (ammonia was going down but still didnt see any nitrites/nitrates) but then it reverted back to how it was. As of now I can only think of 2 things that are causing this stunted cycle. 1. Maybe overdosing on conditioner. (I try to dose correctly so I just got a little syringe that I can measure accurately with now). 2. Filter media. I've read on quite a few websites that the filter cartridges that come with aqueon filters are pretty inefficient. Just looking at it there's barely any media in it. I've got some ceramic media (Biohome Ultra) on order now and i'm thinking about cutting the cartridge and adding more carbon to it.

Well that's about the size of it. I hope I'm on the right path and the new media will do the trick. Please let me know what you think and tell me if you need any more details about the situation. Thanks in advance!

Oh i forgot to add, I use the API master test kit, expiration isn't until 08/2018 on all of the bottles

TwoTankAmin · Aug 4, 2014

I takes ammonia to cycle a tank. Your experience should tell you this. A proper fish in cycle take about 5 weeks. Change lots of water and it takes forever.

Hobby kites measure total ammonia which is a combination of NH3- toxic ammonia and NH4 way less toxic ammonium. In order to perfoRm a fish in cycle one needs to know the difference and a lot more. merely keeping ammonia at .25 ppm or less is not the way to do things.

There are two articles on this site that deal specifically with your situation. You can find them at the top of the section where this thread is. I suggest you read them. then give us a bit more information. Lets start with how many and what sort of fish you have and what size they are. They are what makes the ammonia for the most part, so we need to have some clue on this.

vrob · Aug 4, 2014

Hi TwoTankAmin,
Thanks for the quick reply. Are the atricles you're reffering to the "rescuing a fish in cycle gone wild I/II"? If so I'm reading over them now. Sadly I only have one LFS in my area and they wont accept any returns right now so dropping the tank population isn't really an option.

Speaking of which I have:
6 Glofish (3 danios, 3 tetras)
3 Head-and-taillight tetras
1 3" pleco
1 6" tire track eel
((The pleco and tire track eel were bought with the intention of moving to the next tank))

I have added a sponge filter from an established tank (angelsplus.com) as well as used tetra safe start.
I keep the heater set at 80 degrees.

I realize the constant water changes aren't doing very much good for the cycling process but like i said, i'm not a fan of suffering/sacrificial fish. I've been keeping the ammonia around .25 for the bacteria's sake only. Do you think that's too low? If so what's the highest you think my fish can handle?

Also you mentioned NH3/NH4 ammonia, do you know of a good test kit that checks for both?

Thanks again

vrob · Aug 4, 2014

Nevermind that last question. I found the formula on the post and it seems like some good food for thought. I'm also considering moving some to a "Rubbermaid aquarium" for a bit

TwoTankAmin · Aug 4, 2014

With tetras safe start you should be aware of the following:

First, ideally you should set up the tank, and let it run at least 24 hours, then, shortly before you head off to the store for your first fish, add TSS to the tank. Within two hours, you should add the fish. Our normal recommendation is to add one small fish per ten gallons of water. However, you CAN fully stock the tank, you just need to keep a close eye on it, and be sure to not complicate matters by overfeeding as well. We recommend this method for African cichlid tanks since it is best to fully stock such a tank from the beginning due to territorial issues. For a novice fish-keeper, we'd recommend the one small fish per ten gallons rule for the first two weeks. Within two weeks, TSS should have fully cycled the tank and they can start slowly adding more fish, one at a time.

In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the food the bacteria require to live.

If you already have fish, and are having an ammonia issue, it is best to get the ammonia levels down to below 4.0. 4.0 and higher is just as toxic to TSS as it is to fish. While 2.0 -3.5 PPM ammonia may harm some of the TSS bacteria, it should still have some effect. You may want to do a second dose several days after adding the first one, if you are not seeing the results you want. Keep in mind, these are bacteria, not a chemical, so results are slow to see. Give the product at least 5-7 days.

Best temperature for TSS is between 40 and 80 degrees. Freezing and extreme heat will destroy it. Refrigeration is okay, but not necessary.

You can test the water any time, but really, you should probably wait at least 48 hours. We expect TSS to start slowly seeding the tank, and making a difference in about that time. You have to have some ammonia occur in the tank to provide the cycle needed, so it will usually create levels or reduce levels to around 1.0-1.5 ppm, and they should stay there for a week to 14 days, and then come down. Sorry, these levels would be for both ammonia and nitrite. These are considered stress, but not toxic, levels, and should not cause any long term damage to the fish.

We recommend waiting two weeks before a water change. Of course, if for some reason, the levels go up to a high level again, we would recommend a change at that point, and another dose. Usually, the hobbyist has done something wrong the first time, in such cases Of course, if for some reason, the levels go up to a high level again, we would recommend a change at that point, and another dose. Usually, the hobbyist has done something wrong the first time, in such cases.

from fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-nitrogen-cycle/58116-q-tetra-tetra-safestart.html

vrob · Aug 4, 2014

Thanks for that info TwoTankAmin. On my TSS bottle it says "setup, de-chlore, then add TSS" but it doesnt say ANYTHING about waiting 24 hours or TSS being affected by any such product. Every time i had used TSS it was directly after a water change...

vrob · Aug 8, 2014

Here's an update for any who's interested.

I recently got in my new filter media (Biohome Ultimate) and added some mechanical filtration to the end of the filter inlet tube. (the old filter cartridge is laying on the substrate for now).
The past 2 days have been a little odd as far as test readings go.
Yesterday: Ammonia- 0ppm<.25ppm (almost pure yellow, barely a hint of green), Nitrite-0ppm, Nitrate-0ppm
Today: Ammonia-0ppm, Nitirite-0ppm, Nitrate- >0ppm (not quite orange but darker than the 0ppm yellow)

To me this seems promising but I'd love to hear other opinions

vrob · Aug 11, 2014

So It's been 5 days now without a single ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate reading. I'm using the same API test kit i've been using so I'm a bit confused. I'm thinking about taking a sample to my LFS and have them test it (even though one of them recently said "Nitrate testing isn't important for freshwater tanks, only saltwater tanks need nitrate testing")... I'll tell her to test it anyways.

Any thoughts? I've never heard of a tank without some form of nitrogen in it so i should AT LEAST have nitrates right? Thanks in advance!

On the bright side no casualties yet

(hope to keep it that way). I just (last night) built a bio-filter and it seems to be working pretty good. The aqueon quietflow 30 doesn't have alot of room for alternative medias and the cartridges don't seem to have alot in them so i figured the tank could use some more bacteria homes.

Just a plastic bottle stuffed with biohome ultimate media and some mechanical filtration. Looks like crap but I think it'll work pretty good

Gruntle · Aug 11, 2014

The API test for nitrate is very unreliable (if you follow the kit instructions), there's a powder reagent in the 2nd bottle and it settles quite quickly. You need to shake the living daylights out of it, bang it on a table a few times, swap arms because your first arm is aching and shake a bit longer. The kit says 30 seconds but I reckon at least 2 minutes of vigorous shaking/belting before your test is anywhere near accurate.

Nitrates of somewhere around 40ppm indicate it might be time for a water change (depending on the reading from your tap water).

It doesn't look like you have live plants in your tank, they can consume some of your nitrate but I have a reasonably planted tank and the nitrate still rises manageably.

vrob · Aug 11, 2014

You called it, no live plants. I do have a moss ball though

lol. Thanks for the info. I'll be sure to get in a good workout with the test bottles before testing water in the morning. Guess I'll retest the tap too just to be sure. I'll be pretty ecstatic to see some nitrates after a grueling 3 month fish-in cycle.

vrob · Aug 12, 2014

Gruntle, you're the man! This morning's test I "shook the living daylights out of it" and...

Time for a water change lol.

Fish-in cycle successful with no casualties!!

Thanks to everyone who provided advice and information, couldn't have done it without you!

TwoTankAmin · Aug 12, 2014

One of the reasons I discourage new fish keepers from cycling with fish is because of words like grueling. Being new, one has very little knowledge and a fishless cycle done right takes a lot. More than the average fish keepers have as witnessed by the advice for a mad rush to change tons of water daily when it is not only not needed but usually ill advised.

The first leg of a fishless cycle (which is also the hardest and potentially the most harmful) should take no longer than a proper full fishless cycle- about 5 weeks. It should not require daily water changes for ammonia and almost none for nitrite. It also involves selecting the proper types and numbers of fish.

I can also tell you that I am on about my 3rd or 4th API master test kit. They usually expire before i sue them up. The nitrate tests are virtually unopened since the first one. But here is one helpful clue. You should not be able to test for nitrite and get any reading and then test for nitrate and get a 0. The way the nitrate kits work is they first convert the nitrate to nitrite and then measure that. As a result, to get close to a decent reading for nitrate during a cycle one must test for nitrite first and then subtract any reading for that from the nitrate test. You cannot have a real reading for nitrite and a 0 for nitrate when the test are done in close proximity.

ps edit- vrob- displaying your test results as in the picture is not help for readers. It is impossible to read the result unless the test tube is held against the white portion of the card next to the column of colored bars for that test. I would tend to describe your cycle as being completed rather than" successful". Successful, in my mind, would have meant it took about 5 weeks or less to complete with the same results, not three months. And if one cycles using a viable cycling product (or hefty seeding from cycled tanks) in the correct fashion, we are talking a week or two tops. That said, congrats on finally getting it done. I am sure your next tank will be a lot easier to and will go a whole lot faster and with much less work.

vrob · Aug 12, 2014

Thanks for the advice TwoTankAdmin, Sorry for the pic without the card, I was just excited to finally see something besides yellow in the nitrate tube lol. I'd take it down but the edit button isn't showing anywhere. Also I understand your point about completed/success and next time it WILL be faster and easier but for now my goal (keeping them all alive) was met and to me goal met = success

But I will add in for anyone new reading. Do fishless cycling and read the great information posted at the top of the "cycling your tank" section of the forums. I feel happy and lucky that all my fish made it but I know it could have easily been the opposite. No need to risk it when fishless cycling exists.

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Cycling Advice Please

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