Zebra Fish Dying

[wake]

HELP
 
I am starting up a research project for my biology department.  I bought 18 zebra fish and put 6 in each of my three 10 gallon tanks.  I put API water conditioner and quick start in each tank.  I acclimated the tanks like instructed and heat was in range.   I am using marina s 10 power filters.  All the equipment is brand new.  I read about the nitrogen cycle and thought I could avoid it with quick start and only 6 fish per tank.  
 
I came back the next morning and 16 of them were dead with red in gills. The other two died shortly.  I took water samples from each of my tanks down to peco and everything red normal expect water was very hard and high ph.  Nitrite and ammonia levels were normal.  
 
I bought five new zebra danios and put one in each 10 gallon tank and started up a 20 gallon tank with two zebra fish in it.  
 
Went back the next morning and each zebra fish was dead in the 10 gallon tanks and the two in the twenty are doing just fine.  
 
Not sure what killed them help?
 
 

 

[Sophie]

I'm unconvinced the ammonia and/or nitrite levels were perfect. Is there any possible way of you testing the water yourself?

I have never known QuickStart to work in regards to the instant addition of fish, sadly.

 

[Byron]

First, what exactly are "normal" readings for ammonia and nitrite?  When you take water to any store for testing, insist on numbers.  What they consider "normal" may not be.  Zero is what ammonia and nitrite must be, or fish can be quickly poisoned.
 
I don't know what "quick start" is, but I assume it is some sort of bacterial supplement to establish the nitrifying bacteria.  None of these are instant (except Dr. Tim's One and Only, if directions are followed), some will quicken the process, and some do nothing.  The ratio of fish mass to water volume has much to do with it, plus the pH and temperature.  Live plants help immensely, especially floating.
 
The rapid demise of the fish plus the red gills suggests whatever was toxic in the water, it was very much so.  Ammonia or nitrite could be the cause, but I would not expect nitrite to have appeared this quickly.  Still, the "quick start" may have factored in.  I think you should look at other factors too, which we don't know.  There could be other toxins involved.
 
It is worth having an API Master Combo test kit, liquid not strips, which includes ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH.  Find out the GH, KH and pH of the source water, from the municipal water authority (unless the facility has their own).
 
Byron.

 

[wake]

First, what exactly are "normal" readings for ammonia and nitrite?  When you take water to any store for testing, insist on numbers.  What they consider "normal" may not be.  Zero is what ammonia and nitrite must be, or fish can be quickly poisoned.
 
I don't know what "quick start" is, but I assume it is some sort of bacterial supplement to establish the nitrifying bacteria.  None of these are instant (except Dr. Tim's One and Only, if directions are followed), some will quicken the process, and some do nothing.  The ratio of fish mass to water volume has much to do with it, plus the pH and temperature.  Live plants help immensely, especially floating.
 
The rapid demise of the fish plus the red gills suggests whatever was toxic in the water, it was very much so.  Ammonia or nitrite could be the cause, but I would not expect nitrite to have appeared this quickly.  Still, the "quick start" may have factored in.  I think you should look at other factors too, which we don't know.  There could be other toxins involved.
 
It is worth having an API Master Combo test kit, liquid not strips, which includes ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH.  Find out the GH, KH and pH of the source water, from the municipal water authority (unless the facility has their own).
 
Byron.

Thanks for the reply, the fish that are in the 20 gallon are starting to develop redness around gills and breathing crazy fast and big.    
 
Each of the tanks testes were pretty consistent, here are the levels. 
Nitrate 5 ppm
Nitrite  0 ppm 
Total hardness 300 ppm 
Chlorine 0 ppm 
Total Alkalinity 180 ppm 
PH- 8.4  
Ammonia was between 0 and .25 ppm.  
 
I will be going down to Pet CO and checking water levels again. Not sure what the toxin that killing them is. 

 

[Bubbelzzz]

As I mentioned in your other topic.
 
Hmmm... it's hard to come up with an answer to this. But I have to tell you that there is no quick way of cycling you tank. Even the quick start stuff can't make your tank cycled right away.
 
However due to the very short time that it took for your fish to die and the given water parameters, improper cycling cannot be the cause. 
The hardness is quite high (at the upper bound for these fish) and the pH is rather high as well. However, Danio rerio are pretty strong fish, so i wouldn't expect them to die from these parameters on an overnight basis.
 
So it is a big puzzle, but two questions come to mind.
 
At first, did you gave the fish time to get used to the water or did you just dropped them in the tank? Large and sudden changes in pH and temperature can cause the fish to die very quickly. So they need to get used to the water in your tanks.
 
The other think is, do you have soft plastic in your tank? Such as tubes or maybe decorations? As the ones in the 20 gallon do survive, it could have to do with toxins in plastic. As sometimes softeners are used to make plastics more soft (hopefully did I translated it right 0 ) These softeners are toxic for fish and therefore not aquarium safe.

 

[the_lock_man]

I'm not so sure.
 
The fish are displaying red around the gills which is a classic symptom of ammonia poisoning.  6 stressed zebra danios in a small 10 gallon tank, I think ammonia could build up quickly, especially if they have not had long to acclimatise (both in the 10g and at the retailer). And if it's Petco that are doing the testing, well, who knows how accurate the given results are? The fact that we're given a chlorine level suggests that they may well have used paper test strips, which we know are notoriously inaccurate.
 
If no water was changed in each of the 10 gallon tanks, ammonia levels would still be high, potentially causing the deaths of the new fish, whereas two fish in a brand new 20gallon would have less of an issue.
 
I would like to see the OP purchase a liquid-drop test kit (I don't know how much they are in the US, but in the UK they are the equivalent of $30-40) and do they're own tests - and see what the results are then.
 
I agree that it's a big puzzle.

 

[Ch4rlie]

I concur with The Lock Man. The most likely scenario is that the tank is not cycled and the stocking was subjected to ammonia poisoning in which red gills is a classic symptom.
 
And am not sure if you have read the How to Cyle your First Tank Article from this forum, have a read of this to see if thats anything like how you think you cycled your tank - Cycling Your New Fresh Water Tank: Read This First!
 
Having your own test kit is pretty much a neccessity for the beginner especially for cycling new tanks, as TLM mentions, a liquid based kit is your best bet as the paper dip strip kits can be innaccurate and unreliable. API FW Master Kit is a popular choice for value for money and reliability as long as the tests are carried out correctly.
 
Would like to ask, how did you acclimitised your fish to the new tank and at what temperature is the tank water settled at?
 
Think there is some information missing in this picture, perhaps if you could put up a full tank shot and this may help in seeing if anything is amiss in your tank set up.
 
Your filter sounds like a Hang On Back  (HOB) and I have had the same ones running on 10 gal tanks, good little filters but I did not use the cartridges that comes in the packaging, instead I filled the filter capacity spaces with sponge media, ceramic media and filter floss, did very well for 2 years with these filters.
 
I did upgrade from S10 to S15 as found the flow not very high with the S10, but is ideal for slow flow fish such as Bettas and Gouramis in a 10 gallon tank.
 
 

Hmmm... it's hard to come up with an answer to this. But I have to tell you that there is no quick way of cycling you tank. Even the quick start stuff can't make your tank cycled right away.

 
Not strictly accurate, there have been success with these bottled bacteria, most noticbly with Dr Tim's One and Only Nitrfying Bacteria (provided the instructions on the bottle are followed to the letter of course), also the same scientist, Dr Tim Hovanec, did help create Tetra Safe Start so thats another choice of bottled bacteria that will help greatly in jump starting your tank cycle, provided you know the criteria, using Dr Tims can almost instantly cycle your tank, certainly a few days to a week can see results of a cycled tank. This all depends on various factors of course.

 

[the_lock_man]

See, this is why we don't like multiple posts on the same topic.
 
The previous two posts (mine and Ch4rlie's) have been moved from the OP's other thread, on the same topic. That thread has now been deleted.

 

[wake]

Thanks for all the posts! 
 
I acclimated the first group of fish by floating the bag for 20 minutes then dumping the fish and the water in.   When I added the other 5 fish to each of the tanks I floated the bag 20 min and then neted them in.  
 
There is no plastic in the tanks but did let the water sit out overnight in 5 gallon buckets. 
 
Water temp has been between 74-76 degrees.
 
The testing was done usings srips. 
 
I should be going down to petco today and could get the mastering test kit. 
 
 

 

[the_lock_man]

It would be wise to do so, I think. That way, you can eliminate people misinterpreting what is shown on the test - you match the colour to the levels on the card, and then post the results up here (ammonia is really the only one we'll be interested in, but test for nitrite and nitrate as well), and we can go from there.

 

[wake]

If there are other fresh water tanks in our biology department, could I rub our filters together to transfer the good bacteria to speed up the cycle?

 

[Byron]

If there are other fresh water tanks in our biology department, could I rub our filters together to transfer the good bacteria to speed up the cycle?

 
No, this will not achieve much.  And it may be detrimental in spreading pathogens.  It would be better to simply use one of the established filters in the new tank--though the pathogen issue obviously still applies, but if this is not a worry using the working filter is better.  This is what is termed seeding the bacteria.  The bacterial supplements (the ones that work) do much the same thing, they simply introduce the required bacteria which then colonize surfaces and if ammonia or nitrite is present, begin to multiply.
 
On the acclimation of fish to a tank.  Never pour the water in the bag into the tank; this introduces ammonia, pheromones, allomones, pathogens, TDS, etc..  After the temperature has equalled, which normally takes 15-20 minutes, you should then add some tank water to the bag amd let this sit 15-20 minutes.  Depending upon the species and the degree of variance in GH, pH or TDS, this can be repeated one or more times.  Then you can net the fish from the bag into the tank and then discard the bag water.
 
On the tank water...letting tap water sit achieves little benefit when you are using a good conditioner such as the API Tap Water Conditioner you mentioned earlier.  You can dissipate chlorine out of water by letting it sit 24 hours, or quicker by briskly agitating the water.  But chloramine if this is added by the city will not dissipate out.  But using the conditioner allows for immediate use of the water.
 
I was wondering if some other toxin might be in the water, but if other fish tanks are using this identical water with no issues, one would be able to eliminate this.
 
Byron.

 

[wake]

 

If there are other fresh water tanks in our biology department, could I rub our filters together to transfer the good bacteria to speed up the cycle?

 
No, this will not achieve much.  And it may be detrimental in spreading pathogens.  It would be better to simply use one of the established filters in the new tank--though the pathogen issue obviously still applies, but if this is not a worry using the working filter is better.  This is what is termed seeding the bacteria.  The bacterial supplements (the ones that work) do much the same thing, they simply introduce the required bacteria which then colonize surfaces and if ammonia or nitrite is present, begin to multiply.
 
On the acclimation of fish to a tank.  Never pour the water in the bag into the tank; this introduces ammonia, pheromones, allomones, pathogens, TDS, etc..  After the temperature has equalled, which normally takes 15-20 minutes, you should then add some tank water to the bag amd let this sit 15-20 minutes.  Depending upon the species and the degree of variance in GH, pH or TDS, this can be repeated one or more times.  Then you can net the fish from the bag into the tank and then discard the bag water.
 
On the tank water...letting tap water sit achieves little benefit when you are using a good conditioner such as the API Tap Water Conditioner you mentioned earlier.  You can dissipate chlorine out of water by letting it sit 24 hours, or quicker by briskly agitating the water.  But chloramine if this is added by the city will not dissipate out.  But using the conditioner allows for immediate use of the water.
 
I was wondering if some other toxin might be in the water, but if other fish tanks are using this identical water with no issues, one would be able to eliminate this.
 
Byron.
 

Thanks for responding, this means a lot
 
Does this sound like a good plan, do a 90% water change in the three 10 gallon tanks.  Add just one fish in each tank using the acclimation process you mentioned?  Be testing the water throughout and add more fish once ammonia and nitrite are at 0?  I just checked on the two in the twenty and they are doing great.   I will use the api water conditioner to dechlorinate the water. 

 

[Byron]

Does this sound like a good plan, do a 90% water change in the three 10 gallon tanks.  Add just one fish in each tank using the acclimation process you mentioned?  Be testing the water throughout and add more fish once ammonia and nitrite are at 0?  I just checked on the two in the twenty and they are doing great.   I will use the api water conditioner to dechlorinate the water.
 

 
Water changes to deal with cycling issues are fine; this reduces the concentration of ammonia (and then nitrite).  Another thing is fewer fish as this means less ammonia per water volume.  Partial water changes every day are still advisable, until ammonia and nitrite read zero consecutive days.  So with the surviving fish, yes to your questions, except there is no need to do the acclimation process with the existing fish; getting them into better water fast is far better.
 
You obviously need to solve this issue with the existing fish before introducing new fish, and yes, only do this after several days with zero ammonia and nitrite.  I am assuming you will be getting the API liquid test kit.

 

[wake]

So I bought the API mastering test kit.   From the tanks that killed my fish.  
Ammonia  .15-.2
Nitrite - 0
PH -  8.2
 
Do you think an Ammonia level like that would kill all fish in less then 12 hours?
 
 
Thanks