Yoyos and Barbs Eating Veggies

[Byron]

So, to make it sure, in case of pH upper limit of tolerance, I have to check GH upper limit of tolerance and if it is reasonably below the extrem, it will be ok even if pH is too high ?
I have no doubt on your knowledge but to me, a novice will drown in this kind of explanations !
I prefer by far say that we should not aim at or impose the tolerated limits.

Consider GH, KH and pH to be distinct entities. The GH has the most significant impact on fish. Some species absolutely must have hard water, some species must have soft water, and some are suited to moderately soft/hard. There is no absolute GH for this or that species, so these are hardness generalities. For example, most tetras will undoubtedly be better in soft or very soft water, but some will be OK in moderately soft water, but most will not do well in hard water.

There is real confusion whenever one uses terms like "soft" because they are subjective. Many times on here we have members who say their water authority terms their water "moderately hard" or something, but when we get the actual GH number we see it is actually very soft water. Sites like Seriously Fish have to provide some guidance, and a range suitable for the species results. But it is not cast in stone. When it coms to GH my thinking is that there are really those three categories, soft, moderately soft/hard, and hard.

With pH it is similar. Soft water in nature usually means acidic pH water, and hard water mans basic pH water. These two generally go together, and it is obviously preferable to have such water parameters in the aquarium. But as with GH, there is an overlap with pH, nothing again is cast in stone. And given that attempts to adjust pH will usually result in fluctuating pH if the GH/KH are not somehow lowered, and this is far more dangerous to all fish, it is better to leave the pH alone. Depending upon the GH and KH, the pH will tend to adjust itself over time and it is safest to leave it. Unless you also deal with the GH and KH that can impact the pH.

 

[anewbie]

• Botia "yoyo loach" almorhae prefers pH 6 → 7.5 you are at upper tolerated limit.
• Trichopodus "pearl gourami" leerii pH is OK.
• Paracheiron "cardinal tetra" axelrodi prefers pH 3.5 → 7.5 you are at upper tolerated limit.
• Pethia "black ruby barb" nigrofasciata prefers pH 5.5 → 7.5 you are at upper tolerated limit.
• Ancistrus "bristlenose pleco" sp. prefers pH 5.5 → 7.5 you are at upper tolerated limit.
• Mikrogeophagus "bolivian ram" altispinosus prefers pH 6 → 7.5 you are at upper tolerated limit.
Except for the leerii, all others live in no ideal water conditions.
Tolerated/beared water conditions are not what fishes need, or want, or prefer.

Hard to question yourself. I know what it means, I had to do this several times before understanding that keeping fishes in captivity requires providing them
with living conditions identical to their natural habitat.

I think i disagree.

 

[Avel1896]

Consider GH, KH and pH to be distinct entities.

I do consider pH and GH as distinct entities. But pH and KH are twins as we can't decrease or increase one w/out decrease or increase the other.

There is real confusion whenever one uses terms like "soft" because they are subjective.

I do agree. So one must talk in numbers, but something bothers me : 90% people see only the number that suits them, usually the upper limit, not the number they should provide.
In the range Seriously Fish/AquaPortal/FishBase/Fishipedia provide, (say 5.5 to 7) 5.5 is the minimum tolerated, 7 is the maximum tolerated, 6 to 6.5 should be the ideal. Or am I wrong ?

I know pH is fluctuating between day and night. I calculated it on my previous tank, result was of five 10th (6.4 at night, 6.9-7 by day).
As long as KH is 3 or above, pH is stable. If KH is 1 there are fluctuations. Hence the importance of remineralizing RO water except for some fishes.

Unless you also deal with the GH and KH that can impact the pH.

How does GH affect pH ?

 

[Avel1896]

I think i disagree.

Check Seriously fish.

 

[anewbie]

Check Seriously fish.

The values are not hard numbers and in many cases take into consideration their natural environment. While not true for all fishes in many cases fishes can adapt to higher ph and higher gh but not the inverse. Furthermore most (but again not all) fishes purcahsed are tank raised and the water conditions in which the parents were bred and they were raised is no where close to the natural habitat and in fact they would suffer if you suddenly dropped them into the environment their ancestors originated. There are of course exceptions... We can argue under what condition the fish will live the longest but i don't think many of us are in the position to determine such.

 

[Byron]

I do consider pH and GH as distinct entities. But pH and KH are twins as we can't decrease or increase one w/out decrease or increase the other.

Usully, but it is possible to raise pH without touching the GH, and vice versa. I've done both. My tap water is zero GH/KH, but the pH is 8.2 now due to their adding soda ash. I am chaning less volume water now they done this, and so far it seems to be working. The tanks are biologically stable to that tend to override the pH of the fresh water. Several years ago I placed dolomite, just three tablespoons, in the filter of my 115g tank, and it raised the pH from somewhere around 5 (the tap water then) to 6.4 nd kept it there for years. Now, that is not extreme, but I was told at the time that if I used more dolomite the pH would have gone higher, but the GH/KH remained zero so far as I know.

Inb reverse, for 3 years I used Equilibrium in my two largest heavily planted tanks. The GH was increased from zero to 5 or 6 dH. The pH was not affected at all, it remained in the 5's or low 6's for the respective tank. This worked for me because I had no buffering capacity; if the KH had been as high as the GH to start with, it would likely have been a different story.

I do agree. So one must talk in numbers, but something bothers me : 90% people see only the number that suits them, usually the upper limit, not the number they should provide.
In the range Seriously Fish/AquaPortal/FishBase/Fishipedia provide, (say 5.5 to 7) 5.5 is the minimum tolerated, 7 is the maximum tolerated, 6 to 6.5 should be the ideal. Or am I wrong ?

The ranges for GH and pH should be what the species will do well with. Again this is subjective. And for all we know, it may be impacting the fish more than we realize. If only we could talk to the fish...

I know pH is fluctuating between day and night. I calculated it on my previous tank, result was of five 10th (6.4 at night, 6.9-7 by day).
As long as KH is 3 or above, pH is stable. If KH is 1 there are fluctuations. Hence the importance of remineralizing RO water except for some fishes.

I don't agree with this approach. There is nothing wrong with the normal diurnal pH fluctuation, it occurs in nature, and especially in planted tanks due to the CO2. I looked into this with my own planted tanks some years back and I believe I noted the pH fluctuation to be 3 to 5 decimal places. But over 24 hours this is not at all problematic for fish. Several biologists have written that a variation of 1 full degree is OK provided it is over a span of 24 hours and not sudden up and down.

I mentioned above that I did buffer my largest tanks, but in hindsight I am not sure it was necessary or beneficial. I've not been doing it for the last decade and I can't detect any issues, but then I have fish from very soft waters with a zero GH and KH and the pH is in the 4's, 5's or maybe 6's depending upon the habitat.

How does GH affect pH ?

GH is dissolved calcium and magnesium, primarily calcium. Adding calcium to the water increases the pH, which is why buffering with calcium (shells, coral, or preparations) is often suggested. When I used a dolomite substrate for my livebearers, it increased the GH and pH (didn't measure for KH back then).

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

It is very hard to know if something doesn't run smoothly. Reason why I emphasize strongly on respect of parameters, biotop, swimming and shoaling/schooling behaviors, I seek tank sizes, etc etc.
I know very few understand and believe me when I say that stress leads to diseases...
I also know in 90% of cases it's not heeded.

To me, from what I can see, your tank really lacks plants, substrate isn't suitable for bottom feeders/dwellers.

People here often talk about stress leading to disease - you're hardly alone in talking about that, let alone "unheeded".

You told @Circus that her substrate isn't suitable for bottom dwellers, and never said what problem you had with her substrate - even after she posted the full tank photos you asked for.

So, to make it sure, in case of pH upper limit of tolerance, I have to check GH upper limit of tolerance and if it is reasonably below the extrem, it will be ok even if pH is too high ?
I have no doubt on your knowledge but to me, a novice will drown in this kind of explanations !
I prefer by far say that we should not aim at or impose the tolerated limits.

@Circus is not a novice. Not everyone is looking for someone to pick them apart or be lectured either...

She also didn't post this thread asking for advice about her tank or stocking. She was sharing a cute video of her fish enjoying veggies, and shared which ones were most popular with her fish.

Your manner can be very confrontational and condescending at times. I hope it's just a case of a language barrier, and you don't mean to be rude, but it comes across as pretty aggressively looking to criticise sometimes, to me. Certainly in this case, you seem to be looking to try to find fault with Circus's tanks for no reason.

 

[Avel1896]

in many cases fishes can adapt to higher ph and higher gh but not the inverse.

Does it make it a good thing they have to adapt ?

Furthermore most (but again not all) fishes purcahsed are tank raised and the water conditions in which the parents were bred and they were raised is no where close to the natural habitat

So you don't take atavism into account ?

We can argue under what condition the fish will live the longest

I think fishes thrive better when we are targetting the middle of the range. I always followed these guidelines. How long do you think Goldies or Bettas live in water conditions 90% people provide them ?

 

[Avel1896]

for 3 years I used Equilibrium in my two largest heavily planted tanks. The GH was increased from zero to 5 or 6 dH.

I said : "I do consider pH and GH as distinct entities."
KH 1 also affect pH making it unstable, fluctuating coz KH 1 has lost its buffering power.

The ranges for GH and pH should be what the species will do well with. Again this is subjective. And for all we know, it may be impacting the fish more than we realize.

One more reason to not target lowest or highest levels.

There is nothing wrong with the normal diurnal pH fluctuation, it occurs in nature

Did I ever say this fluctuation is wrong ??
I only said fluctuation I noted was of five 10th (6.4 at night, 6.9-7 by day).

I mentioned above that I did buffer my largest tanks, but in hindsight I am not sure it was necessary or beneficial.

Depends on the fishes.

 

[Avel1896]

People here often talk about stress leading to disease - you're hardly alone in talking about that, let alone "unheeded".

That is nice and also a little sad as it means there are too few of us given the number of requests for sick fishes.

You told @Circus that her substrate isn't suitable for bottom dwellers, and never said what problem you had with her substrate - even after she posted the full tank photos you asked for.

I think it is up to Circus to ask what is not quite right. After all it is OP's tank.

@Circus is not a novice. Not everyone is looking for someone to pick them apart or be lectured either...

Sorry for that, that's true I usually put the welfare of the fish or any other animal before anything else.

She was sharing a cute video of her fish enjoying veggies, and shared which ones were most popular with her fish.

I loved this video and said it with

Your manner can be very confrontational and condescending at times. I hope it's just a case of a language barrier, and you don't mean to be rude, but it comes across as pretty aggressively looking to criticise sometimes, to me. Certainly in this case, you seem to be looking to try to find fault with Circus's tanks for no reason.

Of course not. Be my teacher and explain to me what words are considered rude.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I think it is up to Circus to ask what is not quite right. After all it is OP's tank.

Translation: There's nothing wrong with her substrate, but you don't want to admit that you were wrong and nitpicking over nothing.

Of course not. Be my teacher and explain to me what words are considered rude.

No.
Because clearly, this is not sincere.

 

[itiwhetu]

I really don't know why anyone would be happy, with a tank of acid loving fish living in an Alkaline tank. An Acid tank for starters will mean that any Ammonia spikes will be nonexistent. I think that the Gh hardness is more important argument is based around the fact you can't figure out how to lower your pH to make your fish really happy. pH has always been the most important consideration in fish keeping and always will be in my opinion.

 

[Avel1896]

Translation: There's nothing wrong with her substrate, but you don't want to admit that you were wrong and nitpicking over nothing.

You make me
Botia "yoyo loach" almorhae needs rocky ground.
Bolivian Mikrogeophagus needs fine sand or mud.
Ancistrus sp. likes sand so that it buries inside.
Less important for Cardinal tetra, leerii. barbs.

 

[Avel1896]

No.
Because clearly, this is not sincere.

Pity you think that. You are mistaken, but no worries.

 

[Avel1896]

@itiwhetu I agree.
Though it's easy to lower pH with leaves : catappa, oak talking of the more effectives, not forgetting alder cones.