Yellow guppy being attacked by other guppies

[ecarso10]

Hi,

I am new to the forum so hope this is the right place for this.

So here goes an account of the drama over the last 5 days and the story of survival...

I have 100 litre tank with tropical fish. We have 8 male guppies, 2 mollies (it was 4 but l’ll get to that) and 4 penguin tetra.

After introducing the new mollies something wasn’t right. Our water quality levels were off and 2 of the mollies died. The first one within a couple of days after spending time on the bottom. The other several days later and during that time we noticed the issue and went to pet shop and got a treatment for swim bladder...it was just too late.

We continued with the swim bladder doses (I think it was 3 or 4 we had to do and at the point it had just been 2) just in case any other fish had it and we hadn’t noticed. Glad we did as our yellow guppy was then looking a bit weaker, swimming slower, hiding more, and although not on the bottom all the time, like the molly who died, he was definitely spending more and more time on the bottom and it looked like it wasn’t a choice.

It got to the point he was on the bottom a lot and other fish were crowding him. I watched and realised they were pecking at him and he couldn’t get away. I separated him and put him in a bowl with water from the tank and in hot place in the house to maintain the right temperature. After two nights in the bowl he looked brighter again and started eating and was swimming all around the bowl and not stuck on the bottom. He has a patch of scales missing but otherwise seemed better.

I put him back in the tank and watched. He looked to be ok for the first 5 seconds or so, then an orange guppy spotted him and swam so fast over to him and started pecking. It was stressful! I couldn’t get the yellow one back in the net as he kept swimming behind stuff to get away from the orange one and then out again as the orange one caught him, he just couldn’t get away. I didn’t want to catch them both for obvious reasons. I ended up catching the orange one and separating him so I could then get the yellow one out. I put the orange one in the bowl and went to fetch the yellow one, whilst my husband made a new bowl with the tank water in preparation. In the 5 or 10 seconds it took me to get the orange one out the net in the bowl and turn back to get the yellow one, there was another 4 guppies all attacking the yellow one! It was like I was watching his murder!

I struggled to get the yellow one in the net because they were all around him and pecking at him but eventually I did and I got him to safety and got the orange one back in. Then a few hours later my husband checked on him and couldn’t find him in the bowl. I suggested he was hiding as we put in some ornaments to let him hide. When I did the bowl I did this and put a cover on so he could use the darkness to desires. I didn’t notice the cover wasn’t on and turns out he had jumped out the bowl.

We found him on the floor having jumped out of the bowl on our kitchen worktop. He wasn’t moving. We had no idea when it happened but at least 30 seconds had passed since my husband started looking for him. I tried to lift him and he started flapping around. I got him in the bowl. He was a bit lifeless but then started to slowly swim. He looked like he was swimming to the right only and hitting shins the bowl. However a little while later he was backed to swimming normally. I put the cover on and we gave him some peace. We half expected him to be dead when we next checked but he was fine. Given the fact a little stress can kill a fish we’re amazed this guy is still going!

So I decided we were out of out depth and we went to our local pet shop that thankfully had their very knowledgable fish guy on shift.

The guy suggested we could put in some female guppies but that would give us lots of babies so not an option. Although he was surprised we were given 8 male guppies as he thought that was a lot without females. He also said there’s so much space in the tank it won’t be territorial and told me we have 22 points left for adding fish to the tank. The guy said it seems that just because he was weaker for those few days the others saw an opportunity for some food. I have read many an article which suggest the same thing.

He recommend a hatchery to save us the hassle of bowls and keeping them the right temperature. At £5 it was an excellent spend.
We now have the yellow one in a hatchery inside the tank so he can be in the same tank water but separated from the others. I had hoped doing this the others would get used to him again, and let him get stronger and less stressed being in the tank before we released him into the tank properly again.

He has been in this hatchery for a few days now and although they aren’t over at him all the time they are still over at him quite regularly. One fish in particular was basically head butting the hatchery as if trying to get him. there’s another 3 also over at him often. The other 3 guppies don’t bother, neither do the mollies or penguin tetras.

The guy have suggested we wait a few days and then add some new fish along with the yellow one again and hope then other fish don’t notice. We have also redesigned our aquarium and created more hiding places.

I am concerned that the situation won’t fizzle out and this wee yellow guy won’t be able to survive when we eventually put him back in. I know he’s just one wee fishy but we’ve gotten so invested and I feel like he’s survived all of this that we owe it to him to do what we can. The pet shop guy and his colleagues are also invested after hearing this wee guy’s journey and are rooting for him.

What else can we do? I am convinced they will still go for him. As I am typing this, there are 4 at his hatchery as if they want to eat him! The same 4!

Apologies for the massive post but it has been so much drama over a few days

Any advice will be much appreciated

Thanks,

Elizabeth

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

As you've discovered, it isn't uncommon for fish to be merciless to a fish that is showing signs of weakness. If one is being bullied by several other fish, it's a red flag that that fish might have some underlying illness that the others can sense. If it was just the orange tailed male being a bully, then sometimes you get one that is just... a bully. And they might have a favourite target. But guppies don't work as a pack, so several individuals picking on the same male suggests he might have something going on they're picking up on. Since you also had problems when the mollies were introduced and suspected illness, I'd be on alert for that. The damaged scales might be from the bullying, or could be symptom of an illness.

I would set up a quarantine tank for him. Doesn't have to be fancy, a 5-10 gallon tank is ideal, so you can also quarantine any other new fish you get (like with the mollies, it helps to be able to quarantine and observe new fish for a few weeks before adding them to your main tank so you're not introducing disease). But you can also set up a temporary quarantine tank using a plastic storage tote. Quarantine tank/tote will need a small heater and a filter, a cheap sponge filter is easy and cheap, and will also provide aeration so you shouldn't need an airstone. Quarantine him away from the others so that he isn't sharing the water and potentially spreading disease, and so the others pecking at him, even through the box, isn't stressing him out.

I know that it's a pain and an expense to have another filter, another heater etc, but trust me- I've had a heater break in the middle of night in winter once- I'll never not have spare essential equipment again! A cheap sponge filter and £10 air pump can be the difference between life and death when a filter fails, and you can guarantine that those crises always happen when you can't just pop to the shop to get another!

More to come about males/females and re-introducing, but in the meantime, would you be able to post photos of your tank and of the yellow guppy please?

 

[ecarso10]

As you've discovered, it isn't uncommon for fish to be merciless to a fish that is showing signs of weakness. If one is being bullied by several other fish, it's a red flag that that fish might have some underlying illness that the others can sense. If it was just the orange tailed male being a bully, then sometimes you get one that is just... a bully. And they might have a favourite target. But guppies don't work as a pack, so several individuals picking on the same male suggests he might have something going on they're picking up on. Since you also had problems when the mollies were introduced and suspected illness, I'd be on alert for that. The damaged scales might be from the bullying, or could be symptom of an illness.

I would set up a quarantine tank for him. Doesn't have to be fancy, a 5-10 gallon tank is ideal, so you can also quarantine any other new fish you get (like with the mollies, it helps to be able to quarantine and observe new fish for a few weeks before adding them to your main tank so you're not introducing disease). But you can also set up a temporary quarantine tank using a plastic storage tote. Quarantine tank/tote will need a small heater and a filter, a cheap sponge filter is easy and cheap, and will also provide aeration so you shouldn't need an airstone. Quarantine him away from the others so that he isn't sharing the water and potentially spreading disease, and so the others pecking at him, even through the box, isn't stressing him out.

I know that it's a pain and an expense to have another filter, another heater etc, but trust me- I've had a heater break in the middle of night in winter once- I'll never not have spare essential equipment again! A cheap sponge filter and £10 air pump can be the difference between life and death when a filter fails, and you can guarantine that those crises always happen when you can't just pop to the shop to get another!

More to come about males/females and re-introducing, but in the meantime, would you be able to post photos of your tank and of the yellow guppy please?

Yes we think he also had swim bladder but now he’s swimming properly again so think the treatment we used worked. So hard to tell if there’s anything else.

I think we are going to get a small tank fir situations like this and emergencies like you say, I didn’t consider filter or heater not working. We never thought to quarantine new fish but wish we had when we got the Mollies.

Our water is a little hazy right now. All water levels are great but our gravel vacuum has lost some strength in suction so have a new one coming tomorrow as think that’s why it isn’t crystal clear.

We got all guppies together and been no issues until now

I’ll send photos

 

[ecarso10]

It’s hard to get a clear photo of the scales missing from his head. It looks like there are also some missing from the side but I’m not sure

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Male only guppy tanks can work. You were right not to get females. You need two females for every male, so you'd need to add at least 16 females for those males, which would probably already push your tank into overstocked territory, and that's before each female has started churning out 30-100 fry every month...

I breed my guppies, and that involves separating by gender as early as possible. One community tank only has males that I'm keeping, and they're fine together. I've had 30-40 young males in a grow out tank together, usually without problems. However, occasionally there will be one or two males who are very driven... more aggressive, driven to mate, and will chase and harass other males relentlessly. Those odd males would go to the LFS, since they wouldn't settle in a male only tank without pestering the other males. But the majority of the time, it's fine. The key is a densely planted tank. Lots of hiding spots, driftwood/stones/decor and dense planting provides lots of little hiding spots, so one that's being bullied can escape and hide, and the bully loses sight of them and forgets about them for a while.

98% of the time when I see people having issues with male guppy aggression, it's in a big open tank where the fish can see each other at all times. So after quarantining the yellow guppy for a while, at least until you're sure he's clear of any disease and fully recovered, I'd be planting up and adding things like driftwood to the main tank. Once he's ready to go back in, catch all the other fish, rearrange the tank a little so it looks unfamiliar to them, then put them all back in at once. Distract with food, and watch them carefully for any signs of aggression.

It might help to add 2-3 more males at the same time as him, but don't forget that they would also need to be quarantined for 2-4 weeks as well.

 

[ecarso10]

I rearranged the tank and created the rock with all the plants (fake) together. We hadn’t realised this was the way to do it until the guy at the pet shop said on Friday night. He suggested some real plants on wood or rock as well. We have too much open space but I’m not very good at design so spent ages looking at other people’s tanks online already this weekend.

Yes taking them all out and back in would be better than just adding the yellow one back in with a couple others. I’ll get a couple others as well but might be to obvious just adding them in rather than taking them all out.

Would you suggest adding the yellow and new ones back in first then all the rest?

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Yeah, the yellow male doesn't look right to me, his tail is a bit clamped, although with everything he's been through, that's not so surprising! But getting hold of a quarantine tank ASAP would be a good idea. I would want to begin salt water treatment with him in case those missing scales allow a fungal or bacterial infection to take hold. Salt and frequent water changes can hold those things at bay while he recovers.

Look into getting some floating plants like frogbit, water lettuce or salvinia. Bunches of hornwort, elodea or water wisteria are also great plants for this. Bunches can be left floating on the surface, providing shade and hiding spots, improving water quality, and they grow fast, so you can start planting bunches of it as it grows, and thus providing hiding spots that go the whole height of the tank.

So personally, I would quarantine yellow boy and salt water treat him, then spend that time getting fast growing stem and floating plants for the main tank. Let them grow while he's in quarantine. Once you're sure he's fully recovered, remove all the other fish into a bucket (covered with a towel to prevent jumping) then re-arrange the tank. Plant some of the stem plants, add as many hiding spots/breaks in lines of sight as possible, then add the yellow fish back in. Give him five minutes to adjust and explore, then add the others back in, and monitor.

 

[ecarso10]

Yeah, the yellow male doesn't look right to me, his tail is a bit clamped, although with everything he's been through, that's not so surprising! But getting hold of a quarantine tank ASAP would be a good idea. I would want to begin salt water treatment with him in case those missing scales allow a fungal or bacterial infection to take hold. Salt and frequent water changes can hold those things at bay while he recovers.

Look into getting some floating plants like frogbit, water lettuce or salvinia. Bunches of hornwort, elodea or water wisteria are also great plants for this. Bunches can be left floating on the surface, providing shade and hiding spots, improving water quality, and they grow fast, so you can start planting bunches of it as it grows, and thus providing hiding spots that go the whole height of the tank.

So personally, I would quarantine yellow boy and salt water treat him, then spend that time getting fast growing stem and floating plants for the main tank. Let them grow while he's in quarantine. Once you're sure he's fully recovered, remove all the other fish into a bucket (covered with a towel to prevent jumping) then re-arrange the tank. Plant some of the stem plants, add as many hiding spots/breaks in lines of sight as possible, then add the yellow fish back in. Give him five minutes to adjust and explore, then add the others back in, and monitor.

yeah the reaction of the guy at the pet shop when he saw a before and after was “his tale has been obliterated”

We added aquarium salt on Friday - is that the same thing?

 

[ClownLurch]

OP has our sympathies. We know exactly what you’re going through but with us thankfully only one bully was/is involved.
We’ve a guppy bullying issue been going on but not to that extent. One does the bullying. We had four bought and introduced on same day from different tanks in same shop. Two sets of brothers after 4 days or so the smallest was being bullied by the biggest of the other brothers. He eventually died of a prolapse and it was obvious that the others knew he was dying.
His brother has since shown signs of a similar prolapse but only the once and is now being bullied by the same fish. Interestingly enough the bullies brother occasionally intervenes by putting himself in between when it starts and having a go back at his brother.
Weve also added two other all black males with white patches on under bellies who are bigger than the original three to hopefully change the tank dynamic. One of whom joins in the bickering when the bully and his brother go at it, rarely showing interest when it’s only the bully going at the victim.
Im still not happy with the bully and if he doesn’t calm down within a week or so by which time the back bedroom will be redecorated and the QT up and running he’s going into solitary for a forthright. Then released back into tank on parole. Any more trouble then it’s solitary an moving along the street to the old boy on the corner who said he’ll take him after solitary. If he acts up in there he’s a dead fish swimming.
No point in sending him back to shop to bully someone else. Net is already in tank to get them used to it, he’s the only one that hides from it as I’m sure he knows it’s for him, the others swimmright up to it when I was trying to catch the bully previously. How this pans out is entirely down to him. He’s got his own brother trying to nip sense into him. I was all for flushing him there and then we found his first victim dead until MrsLurch talked me down. He’s swimming on borrowed time at the moment. It wasn’t nice to watch first time around and it’s not gonna happen a second time.
Dont judge me too harshly.

 

[ecarso10]

OP has our sympathies. We know exactly what you’re going through but with us thankfully only one bully was/is involved.
We’ve a guppy bullying issue been going on but not to that extent. One does the bullying. We had four bought and introduced on same day from different tanks in same shop. Two sets of brothers after 4 days or so the smallest was being bullied by the biggest of the other brothers. He eventually died of a prolapse and it was obvious that the others knew he was dying.
His brother has since shown signs of a similar prolapse but only the once and is now being bullied by the same fish. Interestingly enough the bullies brother occasionally intervenes by putting himself in between when it starts and having a go back at his brother.
Weve also added two other all black males with white patches on under bellies who are bigger than the original three to hopefully change the tank dynamic. One of whom joins in the bickering when the bully and his brother go at it, rarely showing interest when it’s only the bully going at the victim.
Im still not happy with the bully and if he doesn’t calm down within a week or so by which time the back bedroom will be redecorated and the QT up and running he’s going into solitary for a forthright. Then released back into tank on parole. Any more trouble then it’s solitary an moving along the street to the old boy on the corner who said he’ll take him after solitary. If he acts up in there he’s a dead fish swimming.
No point in sending him back to shop to bully someone else. Net is already in tank to get them used to it, he’s the only one that hides from it as I’m sure he knows it’s for him, the others swimmright up to it when I was trying to catch the bully previously. How this pans out is entirely down to him. He’s got his own brother trying to nip sense into him. I was all for flushing him there and then we found his first victim dead until MrsLurch talked me down. He’s swimming on borrowed time at the moment. It wasn’t nice to watch first time around and it’s not gonna happen a second time.
Dont judge me too harshly.

This sounds like the exact conversation I had with my hubby. I feel like their mother and was so disappointed in them.

They‘re not at the hatchery as much but still going up to it. The orange one is there now.

I can’t tell if the yellow one is stressed by it or not or if he is happy with his wee space. A quarantine tank is the next step. No idea where I’ll put it though!

The penguin terras and mollies are fine with him

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Just a caution to be wary about following advice from big box chain stores like Pets At Home (I assume this is the one you went to since they mentioned points?) Not everyone who works in those stores has even owned an aquarium, and frequently, new hobbyists are given very bad advice. There's nothing wrong with adding eight male guppies, but adding females to the mix when you don't have spare tanks or a set up to handle the amount of fry they would produce would be a disaster. How many females did he suggest you add?

"The guy suggested we could put in some female guppies but that would give us lots of babies so not an option. Although he was surprised we were given 8 male guppies as he thought that was a lot without females. He also said there’s so much space in the tank it won’t be territorial and told me we have 22 points left for adding fish to the tank. The guy said it seems that just because he was weaker for those few days the others saw an opportunity for some food. I have read many an article which suggest the same thing."

The point system PAH uses is very flawed. I wouldn't suggest using it to decide whether to add fish, and how many. It also doesn't make sense to say that it's not territorial because of the space. It's not a bad sized tank, but as I'm sure you can tell, guppies can cover a good distance.

He should also have warned you that there might still be something wrong with the guppy, that has the others badgering him. Even if he recovered from whatever swim bladder thing was happening, that doesn't mean there is nothing else going on either. Guppies are mass produced in large fish farms abroad, which exposes them to all kinds of worms and diseases, and has also made them much weaker overall than they used to be.

Yes, aquarium salt is perfect for salt treatment, what dose rate are you following and how often are you doing water changes? Do you have a water testing kit?

 

[ecarso10]

He said 4 females minimum.

The salt is 1 rounded tablespoon for every 20 litres so 5 of them for my tank. It says weekly with water change.

We we’re doing water changes twice a week last month as had an algae problem (overfeeding) but have recently got it back to nearly once per week. Every 6 days at the moment just to transition back to weekly.

Yes all our levels are good - pH, phosphates, ammonia, oxygen, nitrites, nitrates. I tested them yesterday evening then again today as wasn’t sure if it matter when the tank was last changed which was yesterday at 9am.

The tank is still a bit hazy but our new gravel vacuum comes tomorrow as this one has lost some strength in suction

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

He said 4 females minimum.

See? Now that is terrible advice. Putting four females into that tank would almost certainly lead to four very stressed, exhausted, and potentially dead female guppies. Google how many female guppies per male, and you'll see the same thing recommended again and again - more females than males. At most, a male female pair, but even then a trio with one male and two females is preferred. Once you have multiple males, it's essential that females outnumber males.

Male guppies are sex pests, basically. They can chase a female pretty relentlessly, and without some respite, the female can become exhausted and ill, and even die from the stress. Two males per female means the girls would constantly be being chased by one male or another. Your bully males might be distracted from picking on the yellow one, but it wouldn't be a good situation for the females at all.

 

[ecarso10]

See? Now that is terrible advice. Putting four females into that tank would almost certainly lead to four very stressed, exhausted, and potentially dead female guppies. Google how many female guppies per male, and you'll see the same thing recommended again and again - more females than males. At most, a male female pair, but even then a trio with one male and two females is preferred. Once you have multiple males, it's essential that females outnumber males.

Male guppies are sex pests, basically. They can chase a female pretty relentlessly, and without some respite, the female can become exhausted and ill, and even die from the stress. Two males per female means the girls would constantly be being chased by one male or another. Your bully males might be distracted from picking on the yellow one, but it wouldn't be a good situation for the females at all.

just exchanging one bad situation for another

 

[ecarso10]

Mg/l CaCos is the same as ppm, and german deg is the same as dH. You'll see ppm or dH in fish profiles. So you have 34.42 ppm and 1.82 dH.

I'm afraid this is far too soft for livebearers. Guppies need over 200 ppm and mollies need over 250 ppm. I think this needs to be discussed in your other thread.

could this be one of the issues?