wow... these look incredible... trying to look beyond TB

[Magnum Man]

as in my introduction story, listed above... the 3 fish looked great for 6 months... surprise... then 6 months later surprise again... repeat as needed... just looking at them in the tanks, before bringing them home, is no guarantee... a surprise isn't coming in 6 months

 

[Fishfunn]

I had best intentions of separate tank tools... so far, I've got specific tank dedicated nets, but I can't seem to keep the separate thing going, with the syphon hoses, & even my fill hose has a stainless hook shaped end, that clips on the tanks... but goes a couple inches into each tank...

@GaryE ... said... The thing is, if there has been transfer already, you work like a madman and for what?

the thing is, this bacteria is in nature ( I get the water volume comparison ) but cells are everywhere now... are random cells the risk, or are concentrations of cells required to make fish succumb???

I have three tanks running right now, and I use separate tools for each. When I have to share a tool, I first sanitize and wipe down with bleach solution, then rinse off with lots of water.

I agree with you; bacteria is everywhere, and the fish with the strongest immune system have the best chance of not getting sick. Prevention of parasites and bacterial infections is what I try to address most of the time.

 

[Colin_T]

as in my introduction story, listed above... the 3 fish looked great for 6 months... surprise... then 6 months later surprise again... repeat as needed... just just looking at them in the tanks, before bringing them home, is no guarantee... a surprise isn't coming in 6 months

My Melantoaenia herbertaxelrodi did the same. Fish looked great, breeding every day, eating well. One day I go in and look at them and one fish is gasping by the surface, puffed up and dead 24 hours later. Then 3-6 months later another fish goes the same way. It was endless and annoying. That's when I got Paul at Fish Health (Department of Agriculture) involved and he identified Fish TB. That was later confirmed by a small animal vet I had known for years.

There's no cure for fish infected with Mycobacteria. If people tell you there is, they are wrong. I literally spent thousands of dollars and several years trying to treat it. You can't.

--------------------

Acid should kill TB if the pH is low enough and left in contact longer enough. Acid should dissolve the waxy coating and then kill the bacteria. It will take longer than for normal bacteria because they don't have the waxy coating but it should work.

Glass and silicon are both acid resistant and you should be able to spray/ slosh acid over the tank and leave it overnight. Then rinse it out with tap water. Basic safety precautions would be needed (gloves, safety glasses, plastic apron, etc) but it would do less damage to the silicon compared to bleach/ chlorine.

 

[Colin_T]

Evaluating the effectiveness of common disinfectants at preventing the propagation of Mycobacterium spp. isolated from zebrafish - PMC

Mycobacteriosis is a bacterial disease that is common in captive, wild and research fish. There is no one causative agent of mycobacteriosis, as several strains and species of Mycobacterium have been identified in zebrafish. With increased usage and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This article suggests alcohol and aldehydes (formaldehyde) are effective at killing Mycobaterium cells. It also suggests the PVPI iodine can potentially disinfect fish eggs when used at a 25ppm solution to soak eggs for 5 minutes. They are currently (or back when it was written) looking into harmful side effects to the embryos but if it works, it might be a way to get clean rainbowfish without TB.

Adrian Tappin from ANGFA used to collect fish eggs and put them in clean containers of water. As soon as the eggs hatched, he would scoop the babies up with a spoon and move them into a second container of clean water for rearing. The idea was to reduce the chance of Mycobacteria getting onto the fry and ending up infecting them. He said he got clean fish that way and if it was used with the PVPI iodine, you might be able to get disease free rainbowfish.

 

[Magnum Man]

OK... next question... what to do with the fish that aren't or aren't yet effected... so there is still a Rainbow fish in that tank, that appears normal right now, & a Male Kribensis, that I would use the term "aren't yet" effected??? and there are 2 adult albino Bushy Nose Plecos, that dare I say "aren't" effected???

anyway the "not yet's" could be euthanized... but the "not effected's" ... I would assume could transfer the bacteria to any tank they may be transferred to??? so many questions... anything that went into a holding

 

[Colin_T]

Fish living in the potentially infected tank are likely to be carriers of TB and will probably die in the future. If you move them into another tank, they will probably transfer the disease there.

You can leave the fish where they are until they die, which might take years for suckermouth catfish.
You can move them into a smaller tank to live out their remaining lives and clean and use the current tank for something else.
You can euthanise them, clean the tank and start again.

There is the possibility the rainbows didn't have TB and had something else but the only way to tell is to necropsy them and they aren't around anymore so that can't happen.

 

[Fishfunn]

I read this somewhere, but fish TB is dangerous to humans? I am not sure if this is true or not.

 

[Colin_T]

I read this somewhere, but fish TB is dangerous to humans? I am not sure if this is true or not.

People can get Mycobacterial infections if they have open wounds on their skin and it gets TB contaminated water on it. Normally you don't get anything and it is usually people with an impaired immune system that catch it. You get a small sore that doesn't heal and over time it develops into a lump called a granuloma. If left untreated it can work its way to your heart and then you die. However, that takes a year or more and most doctors work it out before then.

There's more information about Fish TB in people at the following links.

Questions regarding fish TB

So I have been reading things in Manual of Fish Health and this forum and have a bunch of questions regarding fish TB: 1. Why TB are common in fish from south/asian farm? 2. Can fish get TB even if you don’t buy new fish? 3. I always have cuts on my hand (I don’t know how?) How many percent can...

www.fishforums.net

TB, and effected fish…

So I’m not really understanding this, as it wasn’t around, when I had tanks 20 years ago ( or at least hadn’t been diagnosed ) Rumored to have come from Asian farming techniques… some fish species seem to be more susceptible to it than others ( my 1st experience, was with yellow axelrodi...

www.fishforums.net

 

[GaryE]

I have never won a lottery, but I caught fish tb!

It only took 6 months of an antibiotic cocktail to cure. I was immune compromised from exhaustion - working full time, raising kids and caring for a dying family member. I was getting no sleep, and in that state I got it. I doubt I'd get it now, but I have TB antibodies if I get tested.

All the fish in the tank have it. It spreads so easily. Some species can isolate and encyst it, and never get sick, but if they go in with vulnerable species and it breaks out, off we go again.

I have learned a lot in this thread. I know it must be discouraging for @Magnum Man , and it's a shame anyone has to learn about this disease. But there are encouraging things here, in our ability to at least disinfect for it.

 

[Magnum Man]

@GaryE ...it's a bit daunting... @Colin_T ... said... "and will probably die in the future." I think I can for sure say the sucker mouths will die in the future, weather from TB or old age, one way or the other they will die...

but, if Pleco's have learned how to deal with TB, through evolution, & would die of a natural old age, when exposed... it makes me wonder who or what else has evolved to do that... risky, but maybe a TB survivors tank might be possible... has there been any studies done, that show species that have learned through evolution to deal with it??? seems like most would be bottom fish maybe some of the carp family??? or other non sucker mouth catfishes???

... or, am I scaring you with where this is going???

 

[gwand]

TB fish sanitariums. They will soon be all the new rage.

 

[GaryE]

Most of the time, when fish have some resistance, people assume they don't have it. I swear, 10 years ago, I knew people who denied the disease even existed in aquarium fish. It was a straight up taboo subject. I was told I hadn't had it, online. I had a biopsy, so I knew I wasn't crazy. Any time you get these science/data deniers in any subject, they can set back positive research. And aggressive? Yup, they go for it.

So we really lack data on which fish control exposures, and which don't. I have been told numbers by people on farms, from when they tested their fish for Mycobacter, and they were high. But they were hearsay, so I don't think it's ethical to share them. It makes for conspiracy thinking, as they sure don't publish their data. They'd be crazy to.

I look critically at rainbows, mass produced livebearers, and Betta splendens. Beyond that, I don't know. I'll never buy any of those fish again.

 

[Magnum Man]

Male Kribendis that was a “not yet” … died quickly… the lone Rainbow, and both albino bushies still looking and acting normally…
With every one getting sick, I began to see some signs of white spot, so I dialed up the temperature for heat treatment… suspect that may speed up the TB function, while helping to eliminate the white spot???

 

[Alice B]

I hope your white spot isn't what I couldn't beat in 2020 - didn't help that goldfish in an aquarium got it and they don't like heat.
However if TB and neon tetra disease have anything in common, both being pretty much incurable, The first tank I infected with neon tetra disease was also the first one I treated, my hex tank. I removed the remaining fish, I think I pulled the live plants, dumped a cup of Clorox in it and let it run 24 hours thru undergravel pumps everything. Drained, rinsed a couple times, used a LOT of chlorine remover and restarted the tank, when I realized the disease was in all the rest it gave me a place to put my immune guppies and plecos, after a quarantine in a rubbermaid tub or something for a couple of days. I tore the rest of the tanks down, a couple never went back up

 

[Colin_T]

but, if Pleco's have learned how to deal with TB, through evolution, & would die of a natural old age, when exposed... it makes me wonder who or what else has evolved to do that... risky, but maybe a TB survivors tank might be possible... has there been any studies done, that show species that have learned through evolution to deal with it??? seems like most would be bottom fish maybe some of the carp family??? or other non sucker mouth catfishes???

... or, am I scaring you with where this is going???

To my knowledge there has been no studies of which fishes can tolerate Mycobacteria. However, we were talking about this on the rainbowfish forum years ago and we believe that fish from Europe, Asia and South America are more resistant to it than fishes from Australia and New Guinea. This is mainly due to how long the different types of fishes have been around for. Rainbowfishes from Australia and New Guinea are presumed to be relatively new species evolving after the last ice age (10,000 years ago), whereas the freshwater fishes from Europe and Asia have been around for potentially millions of years. Due to the species being around for a lot longer, they have had more chance to evolve with Mycobacteria and develop some sort of resistance to it.

We believe catfish are more resistant due to living on the bottom where they are exposed to more disease organisms, and as such they have developed a better immune system to help them cope with the higher number of pathogens they encounter in daily life.

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As for scaring us with where this is going
Mycobacteria are everywhere and Fish TB is everywhere. Back in 2006 when my fish had TB, I contacted most of the pet shops in Perth and a bunch of shops on the other side of the country. I also contacted importers and wholesalers and they all admitted they had TB in their tanks on at least one occasion during the 5 years prior to contacting them. Most said they were pretty sure they still had it in their tanks at the time I was talking to them. they couldn't do anything about it and simply flushed out or bleached tanks when they lost a lot of fish.

That was 18 years ago and my guess is the problem has gotten worse during that time due to the same suppliers sending out the same fish that have TB. Unlike white spot and most other fish diseases, you can't treat the tank for it while there are fish in it, so it's there all the time. My guess about the future of fish keeping is it will probably be with us until we stop keeping fish or find a cure, and a cure is unlikely.

Fish TB isn't just a problem in aquariums. It is found in marine fish and in natural freshwater creeks, rivers and lakes. The Western Australian government has a department of fisheries and they have a trout farm down south (around Pemberton I think). The trout farm has Mycobacteria in their ponds and they release thousands of infected trout into local waterways for recreational fisherman. Not only do the trout introduce TB to the environment, they eat the native fish. The government doesn't care about Fish TB because it's not something to do with farming. However, it does have the potential to affect a lot of people because it's estimated 10% of the population in western countries keep fish.