Would This Be Over Stocked?

[1patrick1]

I have 40L tank split in two so two 20L compartments. Would 1 male betta, 2 africain dwarf frogs and three white could mountain minnows be over stocked? Also on the other compartment i am having trouble deciding how many female bettas (and maybe some other fish) to get! Any suggestions???

 

[Honeythorn]

Not as such, but you should not mix white clouds with bettas . White Clouds are a SUB Tropical species and require much cooler waters of 18-22 degrees C. Bettas need much higer temps of 26-28 degrees C, and White Clouds won't thrive as well as they should in a betta tank.

They are also a shoaling species and 3 is not enough. You'd need the whole 40L for a group of them to swim and display naturally and have space.

20L is also not enough for a group of girls, who need around 60 L for a group of 4-5.



I think a better idea would be for you to simply have two nice males, one in each compartment, and perhaps one frog as a companion for each ( depending on the bettas temperament )

If you only want one betta and another species in the other 20L compartment, try some tiny Chilli rasboros, Ember Tetras, or a group of Male Endlers Livebearers (very bright little fish ) . You could keep a group of around 4-6 of any of these in a 20L section .


Bettas don't actually require tankmates to feel secure, and there aren't many species they can be safely kept with. ADF's seem to be relatively safe for the most part, but keep an eye out for the betta picking at the frog. If this happens remove the frog to another tank .


Make sure to plant heavily and provide lots of hiding spots for your frogs and bttas. Tall plants are good for both, as the frogs and bettas will like to rest on them close to the surface.

 

[theshadowinc]

Make sure to plant heavily and provide lots of hiding spots for your frogs and bttas. Tall plants are good for both, as the frogs and bettas will like to rest on them close to the surface.

Bettas don't require plants although it adds to the display for our human eyes to admire. The only time you add huge plantings to a tank is when diong a saority tank think its spelled that way, something like this (Remember this person has more experience than you do when viewing this video and this is also 13 week old fry but all females)

As far as tank mates go I keep nothing with my betta's! I even keep the 1 gallon tank empty! You have to look at it this way if you spent $250 on 1 betta would you want to attempt to mix anything else with it?

Female keeping together can be easy and difficult at the same time, I always keep all of them seperate unless I end up with a huge batch of say 30, something like this usually find will all live happily as so many fish means the pecking order is spread out evenly. I always and have kept groups of 3,5,7 with no difficulties and no issues at all.
As far as temp goes they require 72F-82F or for the Celcius people out there thats 22.2C-27.7C safe to say 28 on the top end

If I was in your boat and wanted to have a community with a betta(Mixing fish with it) its better to get everyones view on things and not just take one persons view on things.

 

[Honeythorn]

Bettas don't require plants although it adds to the display for our human eyes to admire.

Explain this.

Tell me why a species - or at least the wild form of it who have the same instincts as tank bred fish, one of the many reasons we do not keep 2 males in the same tank ( undivided) for example , that lives in heavily vegetated waters such as rice paddy irrigation ditches, slow moving streams and pools full of stalks, stems, leaves, PLANTS, not to menton a vast amount of other fish and invertevrates also, do not require plants. No seriously go on.






http/animaldiversi..._splendens.html

And to quote that site

Habitat
Betta splendens live in thickly overgrown ponds and in only very slowly flowing waters such as shallow rice paddies, stagnant pools, polluted streams, and other types of areas in which the water has a low-oxygen content. (Hargrove 1999)

Aquatic Biomes:
lakes and ponds; rivers and streams.

The areas coloured in red I have highlited for effect. A child could tell you that such bodies of water , as the one pictured above for example, contain vegetation.

 

[Knox213]

betta's do prefer plants.

 

[loraxchick]

the traditional hobbyist is not going to be getting a $250 fish. more like a $3 fish. although the price of the animal does not dictate the care.

ive found that bettas are actually very good in communities. maybe ive gotten lucky with their temperament, but have several happily coexisting with fish such as cories, endlers, dwarf frogs shrimp and snails. it is worth a try if youve got the space, but always have a back-up plan in case things do not owrk out as intended. stay away from nippy fish as the bettas fins will be a likely target.

and the bit about bettas not needing plants? i have no idea where that idea comes from. i can not think of one scenario where plants would not be of benefit to ANY fishtank, be it breeding tanks, fry tanks or community tanks! not only do they make it look nicer, but offer security (especially in a community setting) and help with water quality as well. there are many plants that are so easy to look after and are very inexpensive i see no point in not having live plants. to keep a fish in a bare tank for a hobbyist (not breeding where you have a zillion tanks to look after and waterhcange all the time) is a very unnatural way to go. the only ecosystem where this would happen is in pelagic zones in the ocean hundreds/thousands of feet deep. even very fast flowing rivers have rocky substrates with driftwood laying about.

the purpose of the hobby for most is to have a natural, and pretty tank to look at. virtually every tank needs some sort of decor, and whichever you choose should be dependent on the fish in question. ex. ciclids=rocks, bettas=plants (even more so than a cave to hide in. with enough plants, they dont need a cave as the plants serve this very purpose).

just my thoughts/experience.

merry christmas to all!

 

[Knox213]

Yep, I Like the natural tank looking.

 

[theshadowinc]

betta's do prefer plants.

prefer or require?? I thaught I said they don't require plants?

Lora - the traditional hobbyist is not going to be getting a $250 fish. more like a $3 fish. although the price of the animal does not dictate the care.

I just put a random price up and waited for someone to reply hehe, as you might be right but a traditinal hobbyist will spend 1k on a 55gal planted tank setup or even more than that to do things right! See planted section on this forum about Planted Aqauriums

What is your view on a traditional hobbyist? I have seen traditional hobbyist drop $250 on 1 fish and only keep a flower horn for example <- for a good looking one they start at about this price where I am! I have also seen traditional hobbyist keep discus, a fish that usually starts at a price tag of $40+

As far as your comment goes on plants in a betta tanks, many just put plants in and don't worry about anything else a plant is a living thing as well as a betta people takecare of the betta with exceptional health meaning they supply 5gal plus tanks and fill it with plants and yet forget to add 10x turnover rate and say you can't have this in a betta tank and they are wrong!!!!!, unless its a fish only tank sure but if its planted tank 10x turnover rate is needed! And for the ones who say no to that go look it up in the planted section, less than 10x turnover means you WILL run into algue issues, do you feed your plants?? What I find is most say put this plant in and that plant in but yet don't provide a proper suitable home for plants in there tank and yet go off the hook about bettas being in a 1gal tank! Fish only tank is different than a planted tank. For a begginer recommending plants in the tank would not make it a traditional hobbyist for the simple reason the research they need to do is huge and you are faced with taking care of more than just the Betta! You have living plants in a tank that need care as well!

BTW cichlids do not = rocks, Discus are cichlids and love a planted tank!, I keep no rocks in with them at all! Actually Discus prefer a bare bottom tank!

Knox213-betta's do prefer plants, Yep, I Like the natural tank looking.

I want to see the scientific proof! You said I that mean individual view on things, so its your view not something proven by scientists
if you look at the rice fields and look at the water that they are in not only is it blckwater, there is actually no growth in the actual water its all above it just like what a bog would be like.

 

[llamalord305]

For a begginer recommending plants in the tank would not make it a traditional hobbyist for the simple reason the research they need to do is huge and you are faced with taking care of more than just the Betta! You have living plants in a tank that need care as well!

I disagree. I currently have wisteria, and another plant in a 5.5 gallon with play sand and a Compact fluorescent light bulb bought for $5 at a hardware store. Absolutely nothing special, no fertilizers, no co2, no special substrate. I haven't done a water change since I got the tank a few months ago, only top ups. It only has snails and a small powerhead. Evidently, it isn't much of a jump from a zero plants aquarium to a lightly planted tank. Just my two cents.

 

[theshadowinc]

For a begginer recommending plants in the tank would not make it a traditional hobbyist for the simple reason the research they need to do is huge and you are faced with taking care of more than just the Betta! You have living plants in a tank that need care as well!

I disagree. I currently have wisteria, and another plant in a 5.5 gallon with play sand and a Compact fluorescent light bulb bought for $5 at a hardware store. Absolutely nothing special, no fertilizers, no co2, no special substrate. I haven't done a water change since I got the tank a few months ago, only top ups. It only has snails and a small powerhead. Evidently, it isn't much of a jump from a zero plants aquarium to a lightly planted tank. Just my two cents.

1 or 2 plants hmm is it really lightly planted? What is yoru watts per gallon, what is the bulb you are using? What kelvin lumens etc? Any signs of algue, I will assume in the next while month or 2 or maybe even longer down the road as you start planting more heavy you will run into algue issues or deficiency issues. Those plants are living organisms, they are living just like a betta is a living. I recommend looking at the planted section here itsfilled with hugeknowledge to help you on your journey to a small lightly planted aquarium

BTW I use cool white on my tank high tech

 

[Honeythorn]

All my tanks are planted. Stock lighting, a basic single tube for plant growth. No unusual substrate, no CO2, no 10X turnover.

Apologies for the quality but my phone camera is all I have at the moment. This is Bronsons 5 gallon planted tank. It's been set up for many months now and I have no great quantity of algae. Just the odd patch or two which is easily removed with a basic magnetic scraper.

I don't dose with excel , or ferts, and have nothing high tech whatsoever in the tank for plant growth.

Frankly a tank completely without algae is pretty unnatural if you're going for a natural effect. Algae is one of the most virulant aquatic plants on the planet and sooner or later, even with the most high tech expensive setup you will at some point get algae. You simply can't stop nature.


Keeping a planted tank for a pet betta is neither difficult nor expensive. Bunched stem plants root well and quickly, and fill up a lot of space for a pretty low cost. You can take cuttings from them and fill any gaps later on with them. Moss balls are one of the most simple plants there are, and again, are not expensive. You can get packs of them on Ebay and bettas love to rest on them.

Keeping basic low to modertae light level plants require no CO2 for good growth, I can prove that as shown above as can many other here. I've been keeping fish ( bettas included on and off ) for 15 years in planted tanks, I know for a fact it is easly done to have a simple setup like the one above.

I don't have a 10X turnover on any of my tanks, and the plants grow like the clappers. Every month I have to remove flower stalks from my aponogentons, and the moss wall seen in the pic above at the back, is made using cuttings from the huge pile of it growing on bogwood in my 30 gal.

For a begginer recommending plants in the tank would not make it a traditional hobbyist for the simple reason the research they need to do is huge and you are faced with taking care of more than just the Betta! You have living plants in a tank that need care as well!

You keep giving out the impression that having a planted (which lowers nitrates) betta tank , that needs a water change just once a week when filtered as it should be, is some sort of vastly expensive complicated procedure and it's the total polar opposite.

Tha 5 gal right there takes 14 inches of space and up to no more than around half an hour of my week to maintain, including feeding. Simple? Yes I think so.

You also failed to answer my question and explain why you think they do not require plants when it is very well known that plant cover makes bettas feel safe and reduces stress in nervous fish, as they provide places to hide.

f you look at the rice fields and look at the water that they are in not only is it blckwater, there is actually no growth in the actual water its all above it just like what a bog would be like.

Bettas do not solely inhabit rice paddies, they also inhabit slow moving streams, ponds and pools. All these bodies of water contain plant life, including fallen leaves from trees and overhanging plants, which form a layer on the bottom for fish to hide in. The stems of surface flowering plants will also provide hiding spaces and territory.


You dont require a scientists approval to point out the glaringly obvious.

 

[loraxchick]

I knew the ciclid comment would get a responds. i was being overly general.

agree with honeythorn on this one. in a low light set up, nothing special needed for plants. the waste that the fish produce and from fishfood supply the macros, waterchanges supply the micros. no dosing required. and it is so great to start with a few easy stem plants, see them do well and actually use cutting to fill in the space.

the OP was asking about betta set ups. as a typical betta hobbyist i doubt they are looking to spend a whole lot on the fish (could be wrong, maybe they want an import for breeding, etc.)

my tanks dont even have mechanical filtration. i use sponge filters. that takes care of the ammonia issue, but everything "else" is cleaned by hand. each tank has algae crew (although im well aware that all types of algae will not be eaten by every "algae eater"). snails shrimp and otos are great in a tank for algae control. the only algae outbreak, as it were where the health of the plants COULD be compromised, was a nasty BGA bloom after a 5 day power outtage. blackout took care of it straight away. any plant, ornament, or wood will grow algae in any set up. 10X turnover keeps it at bay and gives the plants a better chance to outcompete it. ferts is another thing and is (genearally) light dependent. but then that limits which plants you are able to grow sucessfully. my high light tank is much much more work than my lower betta tanks. its a fun challenge tho. but that was not the OP query.

and there are submerged and emergent plants in bogs. blueberries, lillies, iris. sphagnum, pitcher plants, sundews, leatherleaf, tamarac, cranberries just to name a few. true some of them grow ON the floating mat that a typical bog is, others are rooted on the bottom. so there are plants growing up thru the water column. i have a quaking bog on my property and have spent quite a lot of my time out there. there is a lot going on underneath a bog too-roots hanging down etc., which gives small fish cover. just an fyi on bogs and plants. same goes for paddies. the rice is emergent. the stems are still in the water (ie places for fish to take shelter). that is why they are so important as fry rearing grounds for all sorts of fish..just like tidal marshes. lots and lots of cover! to say a betta doesnt "appreciate" plants is just very unnatural if you ask me of course they dont *need* them, but, just saying.

getting into those famous betta debates again, which is not helping the OP whatsoever. just thought i should add some things as there is a bit of misinformation being given in certain respects.

cheers

 

[theshadowinc]

All my tanks are planted. Stock lighting, a basic single tube for plant growth. No unusual substrate, no CO2, no 10X turnover.
I don't dose with excel , or ferts, and have nothing high tech whatsoever in the tank for plant growth.
Frankly a tank completely without algae is pretty unnatural if you're going for a natural effect. Algae is one of the most virulant aquatic plants on the planet and sooner or later, even with the most high tech expensive setup you will at some point get algae. You simply can't stop nature.

I have no algue in my tank, had algue in the beggining and was BBA and due to not high enough co2 and flow not being high enough in certain areas, actually dead spots in the aquarium I had move my flows around to get it right!
http/www.fishforum...back-to-basics/
Check this link out, it seems I waste my time even saying anything to you and wonder if I am wasting my time now posting to your replies!
A planted tank will have 0 algue in the tank if you have algue its a sign of a problem in the tank!

Keeping basic low to modertae light level plants require no CO2 for good growth, I can prove that as shown above as can many other here. I've been keeping fish ( bettas included on and off ) for 15 years in planted tanks, I know for a fact it is easly done to have a simple setup like the one above.

I supplied the link above! You are 27 that would make you 12 when you started keeping fish I started keep and breeding fish when I was 5, so that means i have 23 years of experience doing things the way I do them! For both you and I its wrong! Being a kid with experience isn't what it always seems for most. Really in reality you only have 8 years of experience! Thats looking at an adult age of 19. and is 9 years for me! Just because someone has experience say 40 years doing something doesn't mean they do things right! I can point out many in the planted section of this forum who have small amounts of experience but the knowledge they have is huge compared to someone with 40 years. For me I take experience from an adult age, not from a youth age.

For a begginer recommending plants in the tank would not make it a traditional hobbyist for the simple reason the research they need to do is huge and you are faced with taking care of more than just the Betta! You have living plants in a tank that need care as well!

You keep giving out the impression that having a planted (which lowers nitrates) betta tank , that needs a water change just once a week when filtered as it should be, is some sort of vastly expensive complicated procedure and it's the total polar opposite.

I guess you are a person that will say a betta can't live in a tank with 20x turnover (Because thats to much force) and I bet you can its called simple spraybar modification, I supplied the link above for you to take time out of your busy schedule and research it, its longer than what I would put here.
BTW.... which lowers nitrates hmm.... funny you say that have you seen a chart of how a plant cycle works for taking in food?
http/upload.wikime...rogen_Cycle.png
And is a fish only tank expensive? Actually its cheaper and 1 water change a week! Maybe can put it off for 2 weeks!
I dose Nitrate in my planted tank! now why would I do something like that?

Tha 5 gal right there takes 14 inches of space and up to no more than around half an hour of my week to maintain, including feeding. Simple? Yes I think so.

A fish only tank takes alot less, and didn't you mention you have algue in your tank, is why I supplied the link above no planted tank should have algue in it! So takes extra time to clean all that algue off doesn't it? BTW BBA has to be manually removed and usually only seen in a planted tank!

You also failed to answer my question

and explain why you think they do not require plants when it is very well known that plant cover makes bettas feel safe and reduces stress in nervous fish, as they provide places to hide.

Nope didn't fail to answer anything didn't see the post because for the simple reason I put you on ignore, so I have to click an extra thing on each forum you post in to read what you post like I did with this one!

f you look at the rice fields and look at the water that they are in not only is it blckwater, there is actually no growth in the actual water its all above it just like what a bog would be like.

Bettas do not solely inhabit rice paddies, they also inhabit slow moving streams, ponds and pools. All these bodies of water contain plant life, including fallen leaves from trees and overhanging plants, which form a layer on the bottom for fish to hide in. The stems of surface flowering plants will also provide hiding spaces and territory.
You dont require a scientists approval to point out the glaringly obvious.

I asked for the scientifict proof and you failed to prove that of what I asked for!
You are starting to cross the line of specific species, so to make it easier I want the scientific to Splendens and Imbellis! Actually lets make it fun, I want to see the scientifics to all bubblenest builders and post it here maybe a mod will Pin it for ya if it passes the inspection! That way we all have something to refer to! This means I am looking for scientific truths, proven scientific methods etc not on what your years of experience has given you.

reason why for the block is because people that don't have an open mind never will have an open mind I have learned that from experience although people can change how they look at things! Your tank you show, I could show tanks that are bigger than your tank ideal for bettas and would range from 2-3gals and have 3 times the surface area your tank has! All your opionions are just that with no background to them, untill ways change I won't bother unblocking its easier to read a post that doesnt' conflict or end up off topic. Everything you post seems to head this direction is why its easier to just keep you blocked! Every betta does not require a 5 gallon tank ! thats your advice you give and good for that, its not always that way! Its how you see it only! Every tank does not need to have plants in it neither! More junk in a tank adds more clutter, especially plants they give off waste to(and need to be filtered is why such a high turnover rate in a tank) they are a living organisim same as a betta!

Lora
if you knew the cichlid comment would get a response then why did you post what you did the only ones I really know anything on is the Mbuna specifically the Acei and the Demonsi as well as Discus? You really are a sweat heart alot of good advice to others I have read from you. I would recommend the above link for you to brush up on knowledge for what a planted tank is about. If you wanted to talk to someone that has more experience than I do in the bog department my wife would be the one to talk to as she has a major degree I paid for in this field

Wild is different from what the majority keeps(So means they are domesticated), I agree with you on some things you say but not everything I would say its about 50/50.
BTW to the left that picture is my fav Discus I own ^^

Back to the OP
Here is what you need to consider, research is definitly key as well as other betta avid owners views and what they have kept together. Also have to look at if it dies you would need to know the reasons why and what picked on what in the tank. Other thing is, if someone said they mixed a betta with a oscar successfully okay i am going on a huge limb here but and they where actually successful I know it won't happen but still think on the subject as if it did. Would you want to dare it and try it yourself.
You have to look at the pros and cons to everything
So ask yourself what would the pros be and what would the cons be what out weights what here?

I know this example is extreme but it opens the eyes a little bit on what many think. Is your tank overstocked I wouldn't think so, so you test your water if it comes up clean then I would say you are okay if it comes up with Ammo in the water you will have to look at why!

Edit
sorry for the long post I won't be posting in here again, all my posts end up kinda long and never a one sentence line!

 

[llamalord305]

For a begginer recommending plants in the tank would not make it a traditional hobbyist for the simple reason the research they need to do is huge and you are faced with taking care of more than just the Betta! You have living plants in a tank that need care as well!

I disagree. I currently have wisteria, and another plant in a 5.5 gallon with play sand and a Compact fluorescent light bulb bought for $5 at a hardware store. Absolutely nothing special, no fertilizers, no co2, no special substrate. I haven't done a water change since I got the tank a few months ago, only top ups. It only has snails and a small powerhead. Evidently, it isn't much of a jump from a zero plants aquarium to a lightly planted tank. Just my two cents.

1 or 2 plants hmm is it really lightly planted? What is yoru watts per gallon, what is the bulb you are using? What kelvin lumens etc? Any signs of algue, I will assume in the next while month or 2 or maybe even longer down the road as you start planting more heavy you will run into algue issues or deficiency issues. Those plants are living organisms, they are living just like a betta is a living. I recommend looking at the planted section here itsfilled with hugeknowledge to help you on your journey to a small lightly planted aquarium

BTW I use cool white on my tank high tech

Its not too lightly planted. I need to trim it soon, the wisteria on top is blocking the light off for all the other plants. I'm not sure the kelvin, I think around 5000, but its 10W. It's a "daylight" bulb, which I read is best.
That means its 2WPG, which is decent. There's virtually no ammonia, since there are no inhabitantes besides around 20 pond snails. I agree, I will probably run into deficiency issues, but a 50% water change will help. I know plenty, I've read so much on planted tanks on the Internet. It's amazing how much information is a search away. I'll get a picture soon.

 

[theshadowinc]

For a begginer recommending plants in the tank would not make it a traditional hobbyist for the simple reason the research they need to do is huge and you are faced with taking care of more than just the Betta! You have living plants in a tank that need care as well!

I disagree. I currently have wisteria, and another plant in a 5.5 gallon with play sand and a Compact fluorescent light bulb bought for $5 at a hardware store. Absolutely nothing special, no fertilizers, no co2, no special substrate. I haven't done a water change since I got the tank a few months ago, only top ups. It only has snails and a small powerhead. Evidently, it isn't much of a jump from a zero plants aquarium to a lightly planted tank. Just my two cents.

1 or 2 plants hmm is it really lightly planted? What is yoru watts per gallon, what is the bulb you are using? What kelvin lumens etc? Any signs of algue, I will assume in the next while month or 2 or maybe even longer down the road as you start planting more heavy you will run into algue issues or deficiency issues. Those plants are living organisms, they are living just like a betta is a living. I recommend looking at the planted section here itsfilled with hugeknowledge to help you on your journey to a small lightly planted aquarium

BTW I use cool white on my tank high tech

Its not too lightly planted. I need to trim it soon, the wisteria on top is blocking the light off for all the other plants. I'm not sure the kelvin, I think around 5000, but its 10W. It's a "daylight" bulb, which I read is best.
That means its 2WPG, which is decent. There's virtually no ammonia, since there are no inhabitantes besides around 20 pond snails. I agree, I will probably run into deficiency issues, but a 50% water change will help. I know plenty, I've read so much on planted tanks on the Internet. It's amazing how much information is a search away. I'll get a picture soon.

Its not actually 2 wpg its actually less not sure on how much it would be, but I would say you are heading in the right area, I would say its low light.(if it was 2 wpg on a tank that small no dosing or co2 you would have huge algue issues looking at what the theory says)
5k kelvin is good lighting, now what is it t5 t10 or t12 forgot to ask that(Daylight you mean cool white)? They way plants work even if its only 1 plant and doing a fishless cycle of course there wouldn't be Ammonia in the water. Actually in a planted tank we don't cycle the tank we set it up and once tank is up to temp put fish in right away! Snails are the worst for waste I find.... 50% water change once a week, I do that in my big high tech tank 50% weekly but the point of the waterchange it to get rid of overdosing. A water change will help but depends on water I have read about, also sooner if not later you will end up with algue issues and its eaither from flow problems, light problems, or dosing problems. Yes alot of information a search away especially with scientific background on how it works etc... I must say especially on the do not cycle a planted tank I did lots of research on why and I must say wow never would have figured it out on my own! But I guess like anything in life its all theory based then to the practical part!