Worrying About Water Conditions, Do You Worry About Them Too?

[tangokitty]

I think the main reason you have to worry about conditions is if you want to breed hard to breed fishes.

 

[Tolak]

I totally believe in starting with plain dechlorinated tap water with any fresh water species I keep, this eliminates variables should any problems arise.

I would tend to agree with this, provided you have some idea of what your water chemistry is and have chosen species accordingly. For example, if you're living in the north of Scotland where the water is soft and acidic, throwing together a tank of Malawi or Tanganyikan cichlids without thinking about water chemistry would be foolish. But putting aside the obvious exceptions like these, most tropicals will adapt to anything between 5-20 degrees dH, pH 6-8. It is much more important that you keep water quality good than fuss about water chemistry, and I *always* tell people *not* to alter water chemistry unless they understand what they are doing -- and why! Or put another way, I recommend against keeping fish that need specific water chemistry if your local water chemistry is unfavourable.

I might have been breeding mollys instead of platys this summer instead of platys if a buddy of mine hadn't started breeding them first. He is breeding them just fine in plain tap, pH 7.7, gH 180's, tds around 200. He might be one of the lucky half, but the same could be said for many species.

Don't really believe this (not your experience, but that it works for most people). Over at Wet Web Media, you would not begin to believe how often I get to answer messages about mollies with finrot/fungus. They really are bothersome fish in this regard. Whether the salt helps against nitrate, or they actually need salty water to do well, I'm not completely sure. But if you want 100% success with mollies 100% of the time, then they should be kept in brackish. If you're prepared to take a chance, then keep them in freshwater. Simple as that.

As I stated, start simple, any problems take it from there. I don’t try to guess or assume problems that may occur with any species, but having info available such as the research you do with brackish, or any of the experience from anyone posting helps to eliminate worry.

I just find it odd that all the folks I know & hang out with who do or have bred mollys have had no reason to add salt, marine or otherwise.

I suspect this has something to do with water quality. In England you'll often get levels of nitrate up to 50 mg/l right out the tap. Keeping mollies in medium hard water with 50 mg/l is very unreliable. Adding the salt detoxifies the nitrate, and makes them so much hardier. I don't deny that people can keep them in freshwater aquaria: after all, they're as much freshwater fish as brackish water fish in the wild. But if you want a foolproof method for less experienced hobbyists who don't know what their water chemistry is and don't understand water quality, adding marine salt mix makes all the difference. Since the doses required are small, to me it's a no-brainer.

But we are not dealing with English water, or Scottish water (I would love to have Scottish tap water!) we are dealing with water that is soft and alkaline, the actual measurements of this and many other parameters is unknown. I for one would like to see actual numbers for this water before suggesting adding anything, even something as relatively harmless as a bit of marine salt.

As far as choosing fish according to your water supply, most commonly found fish will acclimate quite easily. This includes mollys. I wouldn't be breeding angels if I went by what is considered ideal water for angels, but breed they do.

Up to a point that's true. But your angels will (surely?) be tank-bred hybrids. Wild-caught Pterophyllum species are much more finicky. The same holds for discus; try breeding wild-caught Symphysodon at pH 8, 20 degrees dH! You also have the problem that while a fish might spawn in the "wrong" water chemistry, you may not necessarily get a balance of males and females in the brood. Kribensis are classics for this, and if you're breeding kribs and mostly get one sex, then you haven't really succeeded (in my book, anyway). At best you're halfway there.

Cheers, Neale

Most any wild caught fish will be more finicky then a properly bred domestic fish, but I don’t believe we are discussing breeding wild caught fish here. I’m sure we could both go hijacking this topic discussing water, pH, and its effects on breeding & sex ratios, but this will get the original poster nowhere but more confused, generally confusion=worry. Breeding wilds, or crossing wild blood into domestically bred fish is a whole new long topic. I will agree that getting mainly one sex out of a pair of any fish is a problem that needs to be addressed. This is one of those things that needs to be addressed when breeding these certain species.

One thing that needs to be taken into serious consideration when breeding any species is where are the fish you are breeding going to end up? Most likely they are going to end up in a local shop’s tanks, and in the end in local aquarist’s tanks. These folks are not likely to add salt to the water, especially the end user. This means a lower survivability rate, something shops could get by ordering in from a wholesaler, at a much lower cost. Survivability of being bred in local tap water is a major selling point for breeders selling to shops, and a really big thing that shops are looking for. If they don’t survive in the shop or customer’s tanks you won’t have too many options for the fish you have bred. I don’t think anything sucks worse than having fish you have worked hard with that nobody wants.

Bottom line I think we just have a difference of opinion in where to start with a specific species, nothing unusual in aquatics, almost to be expected. I will say that I do realize that you have done some serious, intensive research into the species that cross from fresh water to marine, and I do not think you are going to find a better opinion in that area of aquatics. If the original poster does feel safe adding some marine salt in the proportions stated, please keep track of what you are doing, this means a written record, and please be aware that if you do end up breeding it would be wise to properly acclimate the fish you plan on selling to local tap water conditions before selling.

 

[Starfishpower]

One thing that needs to be taken into serious consideration when breeding any species is where are the fish you are breeding going to end up? Most likely they are going to end up in a local shop’s tanks, and in the end in local aquarist’s tanks. These folks are not likely to add salt to the water, especially the end user. This means a lower survivability rate, something shops could get by ordering in from a wholesaler, at a much lower cost. Survivability of being bred in local tap water is a major selling point for breeders selling to shops, and a really big thing that shops are looking for. If they don’t survive in the shop or customer’s tanks you won’t have too many options for the fish you have bred. I don’t think anything sucks worse than having fish you have worked hard with that nobody wants.

this is along the lines of what i was thinking. basically, MollyFresh, i can put it this way: i will use discus as an example, it used to be that discus were incredibly hard to keep alive much less breed. this is because they were all wild caught specimens. over the past few years ppl have been able to successfully breed them and then turn around and take that generation and breed it again. as this happens these new generations are forced to deal with the unnatural water conditions of the home aquarium. some did not make it and died off, those that were strong enough to live continued to breed and the process was repeated -survival of the fittest -this causes the newer generations of fish to be much tougher and easier to care for. - more suitable for the home aquarium - now, discus are still hard to keep but not nearly to the degree that they used to be. (if im wrong rabbut please correct me). so since you said you want to breed all kinds of fish, and from what Neal says mollies have a tendency to be rather difficult fish for some ppl to keep, you have a wonderful opportunity here as a fish breeder to offer aquarists a breed of fish that is stronger and better that the commonly sold ones. so have no worries

it might be sad if some of them dont do well and even die - because it bluntly is sad - but think of fit this way, that is the way it happens in nature anyway so what you are doing is not unnatural and in fact can be commended in a way because down the line, in later generations of mollies, less fish will end up passing away so easily. just picture all the first time fish keepers getting there first mollie, and its one of yours which you have breed to be strong and vibrant; instead of them having the fish die in the fish week because they are newbies and then end up giving up on the hobby forever without finding out what a joy it can be - the fish stays alive for years at the least thanks to your efforts and brings happiness to their lives. good luck with this if you decide to do it

 

[rabbut]

I will use discus as an example, it used to be that discus were incredibly hard to keep alive much less breed. this is because they were all wild caught specimens. over the past few years ppl have been able to successfully breed them and then turn around and take that generation and breed it again. as this happens these new generations are forced to deal with the unnatural water conditions of the home aquarium. some did not make it and died off, those that were strong enough to live continued to breed and the process was repeated -survival of the fittest -this causes the newer generations of fish to be much tougher and easier to care for. - more suitable for the home aquarium - now, discus are still hard to keep but not nearly to the degree that they used to be. (if im wrong rabbut please correct me).

Well, yes, wild Discus will need prefect water stats for them. They won't tollerate Ammonia, Nitrite, mid-to-high Nitrate levels or a high pH, GH, KH or TDS level. They are however, hardier to disease. Domestic discus are more forgiving of water quality issues, but more suseptible (supposidly) to disease. As Starfish says, domestic discus have become more forgiving of water quality due to the principal of survival of the fittest, making them easier for "adverage" aquarists and hobyists to keep.

I agree and disagree with the comment that domesticated discus are still hard to keep,like with any fish, just the same way as many marine aquarists will with marine fish. The people whom find them hard to keep are those that diden't research them enough before purchase, and thus are struggeling due to errors in the way the keeper is keeping the tank. The main reason for a fish to have issues in captivity is usually downto the environment they are being kept in. People whom research a fish thuroughly before purchase will find it considerably easier to keep than someone whom diden't bother/we unable to. The easiest way to set-up for any "advanced" fish IME is to research first, shelf the research and then copy the set-up of someone else whom keeps them sucessfully. If the copied set-up does not work, tweak it on gut instinct, that you should get from the research

Most people whom find a fish hard to keep, tend to do so because they diden't research it first, be it due to lack of available information, or just down to plain lazyness. If you want to succeed with any fish, research it before purchase, rather than waiting to run into any potential problem, same as you would any other pet (hopefully). Calling domesticated discus or marines hard to keep without researching first to be is like sticking a rabbit in with foxes and then calling rabbits hard to keep because they don't seem to last long after being put into the pen

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Starfishpower]

lol ya, it tends helps a lot to research what your doing before its done. thats interesting to know about discus. iv thought about getting some from time to time but iv got too many other fish i have to take care of first. good luck

 

[orange shark]

the only water stats i care for are ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I dont care for others because i know that most aquarium fish can be adapted to different water conditions!

 

[5teady_2012]

No i dont, not at all

 

[Ludwig Venter]

the only water stats i care for are ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I dont care for others because i know that most aquarium fish can be adapted to different water conditions!

I always advise people "not to worry"..... and it is genuinely so, "the more you worry, the more you lose"......