Worried about new tank!

[MattM]

I have a 2yr old son, and in mid june, my wife suggested we buy a fishtank for
our son so that he would have something to excite his interest and curiosity..

So, went out and got a 45G tank from petco w/ a moderate power filter. We let the system run for two weeks before adding fish (because the pet store told us too, we knew nothing about cycling at the time). For a good while, the water was crystal clear.

The first fish were 4 blue gouramni, 5 danios, and 2 cherry barbs. The danios lasted a week before dying 1-2 a day. At that point, I realized I had some serious learning to do....

I put in a more powerful filter w/ biowheel, added some plants, and got a water test kit which showed somewhat elevated levels of ammonia (between 1-3ppm). So, I started doing 25% water changes every few days figuring that would solve things...

Unfortunately, it didn't....It's now been almost six weeks since the tank was established and 4 weeks since the new filter was put in. I've added some corry catfish and two algea eaters to see if they would help.

The tank frequently gets cloudy and the ammonia level is reading off the chart ~7-8.

I have not lost any additional fish. Every other day, I've been putting in ammo-lock to detoxify the ammonia. I've also started doing 30% water changes every 16-20hrs or so, but the water quickly regains its cloudy color and ammonia never decreases.

I am assuming that I am just waiting for the filter to kick in and start cancelling some ammonia. I've sharply cut down on any food and/or light going into the tank which only seems to slow down things.

Last night, I did notice that there were a few plants that were somewhat discolored and might be sick/dying so I ripped those out and did a thorough gravel cleaning.

I'm really not sure what to do at this point, other than reduce food/light further and try to minimize water changes while still doing enough to keep the ammonia from exploding (although, I'm not really sure if it can get much higher than it is).

I've checked the filter, replaced the carbon cartridge last night since the flow rate had decreased markedly - but the bio-wheel was not impacted. Other than a slight increase in the thickness of water going over it, I haven't seen any evidence of good bacteria forming. I am using reverse osmosis water when changing water.

How should I proceed towards establishing any type of control over this tank?

ps. I should also note that tank gets a rather strong smell approx 24hrs after each water change, but that otherwise the fish appear happy....at night, they are somewhat calm and during the mornings and afternoons they are active and show no signs of distress that I am aware of. Also, its been 3 weeks since I've lost any fish in the tank...

 

[karrihug]

have you tested for nitrite or nitrate? it sounds like the ammo lock is keeping the tank from being able to feed the bacteria so that it can cycle. but i am not sure. also, check your tap water and see if possibly it has ammonia.

 

[SailfinGirl]

Its sounds like you have a hell of a lot of fish in there. 4 gouramis 2 barbs some catfish and 2 algae eaters. They will be contributing to the ammonia levels. Is there anywhere you can put the fish, or perhaps return them to the lfs? Get a couple of small hardy fish instead, because the ammonia needs to decrease. After ammonia settles, you will have more deadly nitrites to contend with.

The food you are giving the fish and the amount and size of the fish in the tank are a big factor. If you don't want to get rid of your fish, see if your friends/colleagues/relatives have any fish tanks which they could house your fish in? You ideally need to get the fish out of there until it is sorted.

Also, do not vacum the gravel, and do not give it another thorough clean. The gravel is where the bacteria are forming, and to disturb it will not allow them too.

I had the same problem as you did not long ago, although mine was not so bad.

 

[White Whale]

Make sure the gravel isn't too high. And start with white cloud minnows. They may be as skittish as hell, but the are just as tough and are great for cycling tanks.

 

[MattM]

I did test both nitrates and nitrites a few days ago, and redid the nitrite test this morning. The nitrates were slight, .10 or so I think...the nitrites seem to be stuck at 0. I don't think I've ever seen them move.

If the ammo-lock is indeed getting in the way of the cycle, than that definitly puts me in a bind. The only solution would be put the fish in a seperate tank for a few days. As I mentioned earlier, I am using reverse osmosis water...though I guess there are no guarentees. I have not tested the water *before* putting it into the tank....

Also, I am considering adding another 1-2 mini biowheels to the tank to see if that would help atm. These things are so small, it would fit easily. But, if they only help after 4-6 weeks - there wouldn't be much point. I did do some research on the web last night and noticed that penguin computing has an emperor 280 biowheel 50G unit that includes a seperate compartment in additon to the standard chemical/mechanical/biological. Apparnetly, they sell something they call white carbon you can put in the compartment of the filter to reduce ammonia...I dont want to waste $$..but that would certainly be alot easier than finding another tank for the fish for a week or two...but would it help?

 

[MattM]

yes, the gravel might be a problem....when I added the plants, I put in some finer gravel on top of the original which was very coarse. I did try to keep it as small as possible, but if it could be causing the ammonia to be so wild, I should definitly fix it....

 

[sef]

Can I ask what type of test kit you're using? If you're using a product such a AmmoLock to address the ammonia, but also using a Nesslar-based ammonia test kit, you will get false-positive readings. A salicylate-based kit will be needed. These typically have two bottles of reagent. Just a thought.

The thing that pisses me off about pet stores, is the lack of information they give new fish owners concerning cycling. The cycling process can take anywhere from 4-6 weeks, and in a fishless cycle (which I highly recommend) it may take even longer. To run a tank for only a short time, then add multiple fish, is simply courting disaster. Someone should have told you this. At most (and, again, I don't advocate cycling with fish -- it's much too hard on most species), you could have added perhaps two small fish while closely testing ammonia and nitrites, and performing partial water changes. Even in a tank that size, it takes time for the "good" bacteria to establish itself. Once your ammonia and nitrites both registered 0, then you could *gradually* add more fish.

Since you are now seeing 0 nitrites but slight levels of nitrAtes, it's possible that the tank is at or near the end of the cycling process, and your test kit is giving you inaccurate results with regard to ammonia. What type of conditioner were you using previously?

sef

 

[MattM]

I thought about that - that the ammonia readings might be a false positive.

However, I actually hvae two test kits - one from aquarium pharm and the other from marinelabs. The aquarium pharm seems to be the better of the two, and uses two bottles. However, both show high readings for ammonia.

Could it be that the gravel is just somehow very bad (because its too high) and that the tank is actually essentially cycled but is unable to keep up w/ bad ammonia?

In that case, I really would just need to borrow or buy another tank for a week or so while I fix the gravel situation (doing anything with the fish in it would result in totally cloudy water).

It seems nearly every proposed remedy has me moving the fish out for awhile....unless things settle down in the next few days on their own or getting the white carbon filter would do the trick.

 

[GP]

You won't need another filter. If your gravel is too thick I would take some out, because food could get stuck in the gravel causing high ammonia levels. Also, I'd do 30% water changes every day or 2 days, and feed your fish every 2 days. Fish are cold blooded and do not need food like mammals.

 

[MattM]

even if both of the test kits were somehow misreading ammonia because of prior water conditioners and ammo lock, that wouldn't explain the water being cloudy and there being a smell after 24hrs from water change?

I do have a third kit ( the jungle freshwater test strips ) but it doesn't seem to be too sensitive and rarely changes so I have no idea whether to trust it...(also being an under 1 minute dip and read test is underwhelming...)

ph ~7.5
akalainity ~80
gh 75
nitrite 0 (maybe 0.1)
nitrate 10
ammonia: no test available

and, here is the latest marine labs results (just performed a few minutes ago(I have been using the aquarium pharm the last few days so the results will be somewhat different)):

nitrite ~0.05
nitrate <2.5
ammonia ~2ppm!! (wow)

To be completely consistant, I am redoing all the aquarium pharm tests at this moment:

ph: ~7.6
nitrate: no test available
nitrite: 0
ammonia: ~4-5ppm

Keep in mind that a 15% water change was performed within the last 3hrs.

The aquarium pharm ammonia read 6-8ppm last night and this morning (before the water change).

ok, suppose we throw out the aquarium pharm results and keep the marine labs only....should I essentially assume the tank is cycled and there is minimal danger to the fish (yes, I know 2.0 isn't great..but if the filter _is_ working based on the above than that should be taken care of if I focus on the gravel and less light/food?)....

This is all very confusing... I wish there was a solid digital reader somewhere...

 

[karrihug]

if i were you, i would immediatly stop using the ammo lock, do a big(like 50%) water change, and then just watch it very closely. if needed do smaller water changes up to several times a day if necessary. i think the ammo lock is inhibiting your bacteria growth, but there must be some there unless your tap water contains nitrate. worst case, if you stop the ammo lock and do water changes, if the fish start to act like there is ammonia problems you can always go back to the ammo lock. jmho.

edited to say: i don't trust the jungle test strips at all.

 

[MattM]

Just to provide a little bit of gratitude for everyone's help and also to ensure that I've been completely clear about the tank, here are some pictures - taken from different angles and distances.....

 

[MattM]

the larger view:

 

[Brunnen-G]

Sorry if this sounds patronising, but are you dechlorinating the water before adding it?

 

[MattM]

yep, I apply a "stress" something or another which has a dechlorination agent whenever water is changed.. I'm not sure if its required though since its reverse osmosis water, which I believe has already been dechlorinated. The anti-ammo stuff I've also been using has a dechlorination agent, although it would be too late by the time it got to it (I think).

Anyhow, I just fixed the gravel situation (via taking all the finer gravel out of the tank and smoothing the main course gravel in the holes, and then resettling the plants that looked 100% healthy (removing the rest)). It's going to take a few hours for everything to settle again.

I noticed that the fine gravel was dirtier than I thought it would be, although I cleaned it just a few days ago. It was really stinky. So, maybe this will really help. The height of the gravel is about half of what it used to be. (please tell me I didn't just take all the good bacteria out )

As part of that process, I replaced about 10G of water out (very painful).

Reviewing the filter, I finally saw some minor discolorations of the bio-wheel which I've read is supposed to be a very good sign. This is the first time its been noticeable. The mechanical/chemical media on the power filter was also replaced because moving all the gravel started to clog it.

If the aquarium pharm test results are truly broken, then hopefully I will not need to make any further changes to the tank in the next several days and I will use the marine labs test kit to verify ammonia levels starting tommorow morning, and updating every 12-18hrs.

Only realy bad thing so far is an annoyed corry catfish since it really hatest he coarse gravel.