Wood And Water Softening

[Akasha72]

let me know the outcome. I'm really interested to know

 

[Byron]

Thanks Byron.  I have a well so no water authority to contact.  I've tested it a number of times because I'm crazy like that.  The first time I tested the pH I hadn't let it set out overnight.  That first test was 7.6.  After it sat over night it was 8.2, I tested it twice after letting it sit out, uncovered and got the same result. 
After the installation of half of the plants and half of the wood, I tested the tank water and got KH 11, GH 11, and pH 7.5.  The third set of tests had the same KH and GH and I checked the pH and got 7.6 and using the high range test 7.4.
I have had another piece of wood in the tank for the last four days or so but I just added the second half of my plants last night.  Early this evening I checked the KH, GH, and pH and got 9 (though I have a hard time distinguishing the color so it could have been 10 ), 10, and pH7.5.
The tank has only been running for six days for half of the plants and one day for all of the plants.  Much of what I have read on various other sites have indicated that wood could potentially lower the pH by about .5... I assume by the release of tannic acid?  The KH being the buffering agent.  But it doesn't really seem that a .5 lowering of pH would use up that much calcium in so short of a time...
I'll test everything again when I do my ammonia test tomorrow afternoon.
 

 
You've had some other suggestions subsequent to this post which I will not meddle in, but confine myself to observations from this data here.
 
Wood, dried leaves, peat, alder cones, fish excrement...in short, anything organic, will create carbonic acid and thus lower the pH.  However, the rate at which this occurs depends upon the initial GH and especially KH (these act as a buffer, and the higher they are, the stronger they buffer), the amount of organics, and the volume of water.
 
Another possible factor is something in the water.  I live in an area with very soft (near-zero GH/KH) source water, having a natural pH well below 6.  The water authority uses sodium carbonate (soda ash) to raise the pH to 7.0 to 7.4, but this dissipates out of the water and once in the aquarium this plus the natural processes (having no "buffering" to fight) cause the pH to lower back down fairly quickly.  It may be that something like this is occurring in your situation, by which I mean that some substance in the well water is initially present but dissipates out, or undergoes some other transformation so to speak, and you are in the end left with a lower pH.  Dissolved CO2 in water will lower pH and when dissipated out, the pH may rise depending upon the actual pH in relation to the GH and KH.  I am no chemist, but it is worth remembering that other factors may be involved.
 
Byron.

 

[FishCat_16]

I think I must not be able to find the right phrasing for what I am trying to ask.  Oh well.

 

[Byron]

I think I must not be able to find the right phrasing for what I am trying to ask.  Oh well.

 
I thought you were asking about wood lowering the pH.  Nothing is simple in this hobby because we are dealing with a natural system that has many inter-linked components, to put it as briefly as I can.  Without knowing and dealing with all the factors that play into the equation, no one can give an answer.

 

[FishCat_16]

I don't want to lower the pH.  I don't want to soften the water.  I have read here and on a number of other sites that wood can contribute to both though not to a particularly drastic amount.  It now seems that there is the possibility that the sand could be having an effect.  I understand that leaves, peat, and cones can all also have a similar effect.  I am not looking to use
 
What I have not been able to find out, neither here nor other sites, is how long this effect lasts.  Is it a finite time period or as long as the material (for instance sand or wood) is in the water?  If the effect is persistent, will the fluctuation of levels as I perform water changes be a problem or would it behoove me to match more closely than what would come out of the tap?

 

[Akasha72]

okay, I think I've got the gist of what your trying to ask.
 
Wood 'can' lower Ph but not always. I think if you've got high enough gH and kH (which you have) the minerals in your water should keep things fairly steady. As you know I also believe sand can lower things too but I'm wondering if the same will apply. Because you have high gH and kH it should remain fairly stable. This is why I think you should do the experiment with the sand in a glass of water. You need to know what is likely to happen in your tank before you get your fish. That way you get the right type of of fish for the tank pH,gH and kH
 
I suspect your going to be on the harder side of neutral and that opens up so many possibilities in fish 

 

[FishCat_16]

okay, I think I've got the gist of what your trying to ask.
 
Wood 'can' lower Ph but not always. I think if you've got high enough gH and kH (which you have) the minerals in your water should keep things fairly steady. As you know I also believe sand can lower things too but I'm wondering if the same will apply. Because you have high gH and kH it should remain fairly stable. This is why I think you should do the experiment with the sand in a glass of water. You need to know what is likely to happen in your tank before you get your fish. That way you get the right type of of fish for the tank pH,gH and kH
 
Yes, definitely part of my concern and why I am trying to determine how long the effects of anything affecting pH, kH, or gH will last... are the changes only going to last a month or two, or once they have happened, regardless of the dilution through a water change, will that effect return the tank to whatever equilibrium it was at pre-water change or once several water changes have been done, will whatever small reductions that have happened be diluted out so much that I'm back to tap water.  So, would I be looking to do several large water changes to get the parameters to where they would be straight from the tap before I add fish or will it not much matter because 1. the fluctuations I've seen between tap and tank aren't huge enough to cause an issue with the fish and/or 2. once I finish the water change the water will go back to the levels before the water was removed and replaced with new.
 
I see a potential for ups and downs, regardless of whether they are caused by sand, wood, plants, peat, cones, or whatever else.  I want to know if the ups and downs are going to cause problems for the fish or if after several months they won't even be occurring so no worries.
 
I suspect your going to be on the harder side of neutral and that opens up so many possibilities in fish.
I hope you're right, I think I'm too soft for most of the rainbowfish and we already know how I feel about guppies, mollies, and platys.  Unless I'm not reading the colors correctly.  I can't tell the difference from when it's yellow or bright yellow and whether bright yellow or the first yellow is the one I'm supposed to be reading at.  So I'm at 9/10.  Outgassed tap water  is 10/11.
 
I guess the only thing I can really do is once my plants (my duckweed is growing like, well, a weed) are handling the ammonia or I'm fully cycled, is to a couple of large water changes and see where I'm at after those before I make any fish decisions.  As you say, maybe the where the tank finds its equilibrium will open me up to more options than I had before...

 

[Akasha72]

I can answer part of this using my own tank as an example:
 
My tap pH is around 7.4 (it varies a bit but 7.4 is the average) My tank pH is 6.5. This means when I do my water change the tank pH rises slightly but over a period of around 24 hours it gradually returns to 6.5 and settles there. 
The difference though between our waters is that my gH and kH are about zero. This means I have no minerals in my tap water to keep the pH stable - or so I'm told. I've also been told that I am walking a fine line of a pH crash because I have no kH and gH but I've ignored that. Why? because it's never happened in the 5+ years that I've been keeping fish and I don't believe it is likely to happen.
I honestly believe that your tank will find it's equilibrium and settle there. I think what that is going to be is depended on so many factors given that wood can lower things, sand appears to lower things too and eventually fish waste will also play it's part. 
It's worth noting that the small partial water changes we do doesn't rise the pH dramaticly. The only time I can see a problem with pH differences between tank and tap is if you need to carry out massive water changes but as you are doing a fishless cycle this is unlikely to ever come about.
 
One thing you might find interesting is that I read a few years back that fish can take days to notice a difference in pH. They have evolved like this to be able to cope with the rains coming in in the wild. This means acclimatizing fish is pointless and (I'll probably get shot down in flames now for admitting this) I actually don't bother acclimatizing. I let them float for 10 minutes to recover from the stress of transportation and then I gently turn the bag and stand and wait for them to swim out of it into my tank. I've never lost a fish doing this and I've done it dozens of times.
I so wish I'd kept the link for this thing I read or remember where I read it so I could link it but I can't for the life of me remember where I read it

 

[Byron]

One thing you might find interesting is that I read a few years back that fish can take days to notice a difference in pH. They have evolved like this to be able to cope with the rains coming in in the wild. This means acclimatizing fish is pointless and (I'll probably get shot down in flames now for admitting this) I actually don't bother acclimatizing. I let them float for 10 minutes to recover from the stress of transportation and then I gently turn the bag and stand and wait for them to swim out of it into my tank. I've never lost a fish doing this and I've done it dozens of times.
I so wish I'd kept the link for this thing I read or remember where I read it so I could link it but I can't for the life of me remember where I read it
 

 
I'd like to see the source if you do find it Akasha, as sometimes the context in which something is said can be important.  But there is some truth here, but also some danger.
 
The pH change for fish in the wild is gradual.  Those with planted tanks know that there is usually a diurnal fluctuation in pH; if you test it in the morning (meaning, just after the tank lights come on) it will be at its lowest, 6.2 as an example.  If you test it just before the lights go out, it will be higher, perhaps 6.5 or 6.6 as an example.  During darkness as CO2 increases, the pH lowers, and during daylight as CO2 is used up by plants, it rises.  In high-tech systems, the GH similarly changes.  Over a 24-hour period, this is no problem for fish; it also occurs in nature.  [This daily fluctuation is why when monitoring a tank's pH the tests should always been carried out at roughly the same time each day.]
 
The seasonal pH changes are also gradual.  We're talking days, not minutes or even hours.  The change in water chemistry, temperature and barometric pressure all trigger spawning.  But with respect to water chemistry, we again are not talking very significant.
 
The problems occur primarily when a significant pH change occurs quickly.  A pH change of less than one degree--and one degree means from 7.2 to 8.2--is generally managed by fish provided it is not sudden.  I will cut/paste from an article:
 
The pH is measured with a scale from 1 to 14 with 7 being neutral. Numbers below 7 indicate acidic water, increasingly more acidic as they lower, while numbers above 7 indicate basic or alkaline water, increasingly as the numbers rise. This scale is logarithmic, meaning that each unit is a ten-fold increase/decrease; so a pH of 5 is ten times more acidic than a pH of 6, and 100 times more acidic than a pH of 7, and a thousand times more acidic than a pH of 8. Fish must never be exposed to sudden pH changes approaching one unit, as this is very stressful and may kill some species.
 
The impact of pH on fish is significant; water constantly enters the fish via osmosis through the cells, and the pH of the water can shift the pH of the fish’s blood if they are different. The fish must therefore regulate its internal pH accordingly, and this takes energy. Fish do this regularly in nature in response to changes in its environment, but these are usually minimal. Some fish species have a wider range of tolerance than others, for reasons that are not certain.[3] Fish that are wild caught show intolerance for hardness and pH levels that are not close to their origins. Maintaining a species in water that is reasonably close to its natural habitat is usually advisable.
 
One comment on fish acclimatization...it is extremely dangerous to allow the bag water to get into your aquarium.  Aside from considerable ammonia, there will likely be all sorts of pathogens you will not want.  It is true that the fish themselves can carry some of this, but not comparable to the water itself.
 
Byron.

 

[Byron]

I don't want to lower the pH.  I don't want to soften the water.  I have read here and on a number of other sites that wood can contribute to both though not to a particularly drastic amount.  It now seems that there is the possibility that the sand could be having an effect.  I understand that leaves, peat, and cones can all also have a similar effect.  I am not looking to use
 
What I have not been able to find out, neither here nor other sites, is how long this effect lasts.  Is it a finite time period or as long as the material (for instance sand or wood) is in the water?  If the effect is persistent, will the fluctuation of levels as I perform water changes be a problem or would it behoove me to match more closely than what would come out of the tap?

 
I thought I did answer this, though perhaps not directly.  And Akasha has too.  Starting first with the time:
 
The effect of wood (and any organics) to lower the pH depends upon the initial GH and KH, the amount of wood, the age of the wood, and the water volume.
 
For example, in a 55g aquarium of water with a GH and KH around 15 degrees, all the wood you can fit into the tank is not likely to have much if any effect.  But put this same wood in a 55g tank of water with a GH/KH of 3 degrees, and the pH will begin to lower after perhaps a few days.
 
As for how long this effect lasts, that again depends upon the aforementioned.  There is always an initial release of humic substances that will be stronger, but gradually lessen over time.  Decomposition is what we are dealing with, and this breakdown is what produces the CO2.
 
Now turning to the water change issue.  This may or may not have much effect.  Again, it depends upon the initial GH/KH of the water being added, and the GH/KH/pH and biological system in the aquarium.  Every aquarium will over a period of a few initial months, come to stabilize biologically.  There is a resistance (so to speak) to change; we see this in the natural world.  Provided nothing drastic occurs to upset this balance, it will remain relatively stable.
 
The above-mentioned stability is determined by the water parameters and organics, and this means the number and size of fish and their feedings, live plants, natural wood, leaves, etc, plus mineralized rock/substrate.  The temperature can also factor in.
 
Byron.

 

[FishCat_16]

 

I don't want to lower the pH.  I don't want to soften the water.  I have read here and on a number of other sites that wood can contribute to both though not to a particularly drastic amount.  It now seems that there is the possibility that the sand could be having an effect.  I understand that leaves, peat, and cones can all also have a similar effect.  I am not looking to use
 
What I have not been able to find out, neither here nor other sites, is how long this effect lasts.  Is it a finite time period or as long as the material (for instance sand or wood) is in the water?  If the effect is persistent, will the fluctuation of levels as I perform water changes be a problem or would it behoove me to match more closely than what would come out of the tap?

 
I thought I did answer this, though perhaps not directly.  And Akasha has too.
 
The effect of wood (and any organics) to lower the pH depends upon the initial GH and KH, the amount of wood, the age of the wood, and the water volume.
 
For example, in a 55g aquarium of water with a GH and KH around 15 degrees, all the wood you can fit into the tank is not likely to have much if any effect.  But put this same wood in a 55g tank of water with a GH/KH of 3 degrees, and the pH will begin to lower after perhaps a few days.
 
As for how long this effect lasts, that again depends upon the aforementioned.  There is always an initial release of humic substances that will be stronger, but gradually lessen over time.  Decomposition is what we are dealing with, and this breakdown is what produces the CO2.
 
Byron.
 

That is exactly what I was wondering. 

 

[Byron]

Byron, where did you find this bit?  It looks like something I just found this morning, as this is all I've been researching since I discovered there is a difference between my tap and my tank... I wonder if I found the same site?
 

 
That excerpt is from an article I authored back in 2013 for another forum.  We don't link other forums here (rightly so) so I cut/paste when I use bits from some of my articles.  The article itself had all the references.
 

And this is the crux of my concern, particularly the part about pH being a logarithmic scale.  If my tank water (7.8 around midday) and my tap water after outgassing is 8.2 is it better to put the water straight from the tap (pH 8) in the tank rather than letting it sit since the difference is less?  Tank water dKH is 9.  Tap dKH is 11.
 

 
There is no benefit in using water immediately as opposed to letting it sit, with respect to the pH.  The pH of your water is 8.2, not the lower number.  The CO2 in the tap water is temporary, and out-gasses fairly rapidly.  Letting water sit for 24 hours (or less sometimes) will achieve this through normal gas exchange.  Agitating the water very briskly can also outgas the CO2.  In the aquarium, the CO2 in the tank water is going to be constant, relatively speaking, so testing it without the agitation is accurate.  But CO2 can easily enter the tap water as it moves through the system.  Sometimes when doing a water change you can even see CO2 bubbles.
 
Byron.

 

[FishCat_16]

 

Byron, where did you find this bit?  It looks like something I just found this morning, as this is all I've been researching since I discovered there is a difference between my tap and my tank... I wonder if I found the same site?
 

 
That excerpt is from an article I authored back in 2013 for another forum.  We don't link other forums here (rightly so) so I cut/paste when I use bits from some of my articles.  The article itself had all the references.
 

I think I may have bookmarked the page I read... it sure reads JUST like what I read today.
 
I understand not linking to other forums.  I take what I read in one place be it here or there and always try to cross check at a variety of sites.

 

[Akasha72]

I really wish I could remember where I read about the acclimatizing thing Byron. If I could remember I would message it to you for you to have a look over. I read it years ago and due to the illness I have I suffer with memory loss. Some days I can't remember what I did yesterday so trying to remember something from years ago such as this is impossible.
 
If I ever come across it again I'll let you know but it is unlikely.

you do right to check and double check Fishcat, there is so much mis-information out there that it's often confusing what to believe.
 
In general though most of the members here are truthful and helpful and the majority that don't know the answer to a specific query either won't comment or will say they don't know. We're good like that here

 

[FishCat_16]

On a somewhat related note, I keep seeing tiny bubbles floating to the top.  Am I correct in assuming my plants are successfully photosynthesizing and releasing oxygen?