Will Water Changes Ever Stop!?!?

Maybe I'm wrong.

Clearly people think I am wrong. I am skeptical that you will ever successfully cycle the tank with that size of water changes. Sure with that load you need to do those changes, but that is ultimately the problem. The load is too high.

IMO - offload the fish on someone else and do a fishless cycle. Move the fish back in afterwards.

Or, get the load to be a lot less to the point where you only need to do 10-15% water changes rather than 80%.
Tarpan, I almost PM'd you to say I hope there's no offense taken. It's probably bad practice to use someone else's statement to make a point for the sake of our beginner learning stuff rather than simply citing my own experiences and ideas. It just happened to get me when I was having my morning coffee.

I'm certainly a part of the generation that did plenty fish-in cycling myself and could easily have made the same statement you did, many times before.

And I recognize that a big part of your point was that the real problem is that the tank is way overstocked to be anywhere in the right range for what would be thought of as a planned fish-in cycle. I'm in complete agreement with that. Some fish should really be rehomed in this situation.

About the water changing though, we have indeed found that tanks will cycle just fine while large water changes are maintaining a safe toxin level for the fish. In fact its surprising that they don't appear to take any longer than they do.. they are not that much slower than tanks where toxic levels are allowed. Other factors of fish-in cycling do slow things down a bit: temperatures must be set for the fish, not the bacteria and it's unwise to alter the mineral content to boost the pH into the 8.0 to 8.4 level that's ideal for the bacteria, things like that. But having lots of fresh dechlorinated tap water is a benefit for the bacteria just like the fish: High A-Bac production rates free a lot of H protons, tending to drive the pH downward where as it gets below 7, those very same A-Bacs will not grow as well (fresh water counters that.) High A-Bac productivity also can produce lots of nitrite, which of course inhibits the growth of both types of autotrophs and water changes can lower that effect.

~~waterdrop~~
 
No offence taken. I have thick skin. I don't mind being wrong.

I would love to see some statistics on a cycle with those kind of dramatic changes. I have read a number of them quite extensively comparing the frequent vs infrequent water changes, but the frequent water changes were always in the 10-20% range and no where close to 80.

Also, you had mentioned the ideal conditions regarding temperature and what not so I will just ask a straight up question since I don't know the answer...

Should you not ideally cycle your tank, fishless or otherwise, under the same conditions you intend to run it? if you grow the bacteria at a certain temperatu re and then change it, do the changes in condition not have an impact on the bacteria and trigger a restart to the cycle process? I know that back-in-the-day people had used gold fish but they were prone to disease at high temperatures and then swapping them out and putting in tropical fish re-triggered the process to start again. I thought temperature change played a role in that.
 
A few points, from my own (admittedly limited) fish-in cycling experience

1) You must use a LIQUID test kit, like API master kit, test strips are hopeless.
2) If your pH is above 7, then freak out whenever you see Ammonia on your water tests. If your pH is between 7 and 8 then freak out if you have 0.50ppm or more, if your pH is 8 or above then freak out when you have more than 0.25ppm. pH below 7, it's not as big a drama because most of the waste is locked away as Ammonium which is not toxic to fish.
3) 10% water changes don't do jack. If you have 1.0ppm and do a 10% change you will end up with 0.9ppm. If you do another 10% change you will end up with 0.81ppm (not 0.8!). If you do another 10% change you end up with 0.73ppm (not 0.7!). If you did 10 of these changes starting at 1.0ppm you would still have 0.35ppm left. If you did a single 100% water change you would have 0ppm left. You risk upsetting the fish with a massive change BUT if you have a serious problem (high ammonia) you have no choice as death is the other option. Small changes just aren't practical. I did daily 50% changes in my tank while the nitrites were high, it was hard to keep them under control.
4) Filter brown with bacteria - are you sure that's bacteria and not fish waste or algae? Next water change take the filter media out and clean it in the old tank water you have just removed. This won't kill bacteria but it will remove fish waste that could be decaying into yet more ammonia. Repeat this once a week.
5) I don't think ammo lock is a useful product. Below pH 7 you have mostly ammonium which is not harmful (this is what ammo lock tries to convert it to). Above pH 7 you have ammonia which is toxic. Ammo lock is a band-aid but doesn't remove the root cause - the poison. Water changes are a better bet.
6) Do a THOROUGH gravel vac. Rinse the filter medium out in the old tank water (not tap water) as it may be clogged with fish waste and be an ammonia producer of its own.
7) Very little bacteria actually live in the water. Doing a 100% water change is fine, AS LONG AS you dechlorinate the water first, temperature match it, and your pH of the tap water is similar to your tank water (a big pH shift may shock fish). The bacteria establish in your filter media and to a far lesser extent the gravel in the tank.
8) Dropping ammonia levels is the lesser of two evils. Bacteria will still establish just fine. Not dropping ammonia will kill your fish.
9) You have a lot of fish for fish-in cycling, consider rehoming some immediately (give back to LFS if necessary).
10) Test your tap water. My tap water already had 0.50ppm nitrites which made controlling the nitrite peak difficult!!! Hence the large water changes I had to do during that phase because of the base level of poison in my tap water.
11) Feed sparingly. One thing I did wrong was overfeeding at first and everything you put in the tank turns into ammonia whether consumed by fish or not.

As I said, I did daily 50% water changes for a while and my tank still cycled just fine. If you skip a vital detail and fail to dechlorinate your water then you'll keep killing your bacteria colonies, but if you do things by the book then your tank WILL cycle. It is frustrating and your stocking levels are making it that much worse.
 
<...>
Also, you had mentioned the ideal conditions regarding temperature and what not so I will just ask a straight up question since I don't know the answer...

Should you not ideally cycle your tank, fishless or otherwise, under the same conditions you intend to run it? if you grow the bacteria at a certain temperatu re and then change it, do the changes in condition not have an impact on the bacteria and trigger a restart to the cycle process? I know that back-in-the-day people had used gold fish but they were prone to disease at high temperatures and then swapping them out and putting in tropical fish re-triggered the process to start again. I thought temperature change played a role in that.
This is the kind of good question that observant people -have- asked since the 1980's when fishless cycling got started. We -do- have answers and observations about this. If you had no shared experience from others having tried and reported what happened to them then using final fish conditions would indeed be a sensible starting point, but luckily we have hundreds of cases (even from just the last few years here on TFF) from different forums and even some scientific papers that pertain.

The first thing to understand is that using fish conditions -will- work for fishless cycling (makes sense) but it is slow. Temperature, pH and ammonia concentration are among the most significant variables. The biofilters for both tropical and cold water turn out to harbor the same two species (Nitrosomonas spp. and Nitrospira spp.) It's been confirmed many times that seeding/cloning filters can work in either direction for these. When fish are not present however, we have the advantage of being able to use the laboratory growth curves for these autotrophs: The optimal growth speed peak is rather sharply centered on 84F/29C (28,29,30C) and looks like a rounded pyramid (roughly, temps around 20C and below cause very slow metabolism and temps around 40C and above cause the cell proteins to be inactive and can possibly cause membrane failure.)

The optimal pH curve has a larger flat plateau running from 8.0 to 8.4 and is important for different reasons in different phases of fishless cycling. During the first phase of fishless (prior to the nitrite spike, when you are trying to grow the first A-Bacs and get ammonia to drop for the first time) it's advantageous to not have pH below 7.0 because below that, the enzyme in Nitrosomonas that carries out the first part of ammonia oxidation is rendered inactive. (It's easy to see the problem here with low carbonate alkalinity, since once the A-Bacs ramp up (NH3 -> NH2- + H+) protons are grabbing all the carbonate ions!) Then, toward the end of the second phase when nitrites are sky high and during the 3rd phase when nitrates are replacing nitrites, we have the same excess proton problem but this time it's caused by the 7% nitric acid you get when nitrates are dissolved in water as the nitrogen complex moves back and forth between the nitrate ion state and the nitric acid state. This second one causes much stronger downward pH pressure.

OK, so now for the one most closely associated with your question, the ammonia concentration. The most interesting limit we find here is that concentrations at about 8ppm or higher will encourage a different species of A-Bac that can cause significant problems (it flourishes and occupies the media sites but then dies when there are drops in concentration and the dead material won't give up the media site) [Note: it helps to understand there are hundreds of species present in the fresh water and our autotrophs typically aren't more than 10% of what's there. There are lots and lots of heterotrophic species present.] But below 8ppm, our ammonia will correctly encourage the Nitrosomonas and this will be true anywhere from zero on up the point at 8 where it will be outcompeted. In hobbyist filters, the most optimal concentration at a given phase of fishless is based only on our crude observations and a precious few comments from the scientists. I feel an initial hit of 4 to 5ppm in the very beginning is somehow beneficial (perhaps there are other organics that may tie up some of the NH3/NH4+ or larger amounts may somehow ensure better final delivery to the sites on the biomedia where we want the molecules to be.) Then, once the second and third phases are reached, the whole picture changes and it's all about limiting the push of nitrogen because the process is going to drive NO2- and NO3- so high, so we drop down to 2ppm or so to reduce the number of water change disturbances we might have to do. Then in very final run, we always want to ease the dosing back up to 5ppm because we need to prepare the now much larger colonies for the big drop down when we remove the artificial ammonia source. The drop-down is extremely important and is one of the prime reasons why we have developed the "qualification week" add-on.

There are still other important factors but they are beyond the scope of this article: the DO (Dissolved Oxygen) level is quite important and it's true that the acceleration we seek with the 29C temp could be slightly negative by lowering DO, which is why surface movement (and added aeration in some cases) is very important. The list of trace things that kill our autotrophic bacteria is long and most of us can test for none of it: aerosols (N2O), Copper, Nickel, Zinc, Cadmium, Chromium, Methanol, Ethanol, n-butanol, Sodium Sulfide, Ethyl xanthate (mining industry), Disinfectant, surfactant, fabric softeners, shampoo, UV light, even H2N2 (rocket fuel! :lol: )... these have all been found it home water supplies at times.

Another important argument that's been raised is that in fishless cycling we aren't pre-growing the heterotrophic colonies that will be a part of the finished freshwater ecosystem (the many species that will contribute by breaking down the fish waste and plant debris to add to the main ammonia coming from fish respiration.) This is a non-issue, I feel, because the heterotrophic bacteria are so very, very fast and ubiquitous. They double within 20-30 minutes, as opposed to the 2 days that autotrophs can take (hets can use organic carbon, whereas autos can only use CO2 for carbon, which is slower.) If you've ever seen a bacterial bloom form, then you know how fast the heterotrophs can appear and then disappear.

~~waterdrop~~
 
Agreed. That is quite the post to absorb. Very much appreciated. I will need to give that some time to fully sink in =)
 
It actually served as a bit of an excuse. From time to time oldman47 and I attempt to find and understand various bacteriology articles and I had been studying something about the enzymatic processes that Nitrosomonas use to convert ammonia to nitrite. The concern that the first stage enzyme really can shut down below a pH of 7.0 is a new thing and has been making me have a rethink about initial pH during fishless cycling. In the past we've felt it better to leave things along as long as pH was above maybe 6.6 but now I'm beginning to think it might be better to go ahead and encourage the use of baking soda right off in the beginning for people at 7 and below. We've not seen any problems from use of baking soda. It pretty much all goes out with the big water change at the end of fishless cycling.

~~waterdrop~~
 
Ok so I am attempting the fishless cycle. Day one: everything assembled, washed, and functioning. I let the dechlorinated water circulate for oh I'd say 12 hours. I added some ammonia from ace hardware and my initial ammonia reading might be closer to 8 than 4 or 5 should I do an immediate water change to get it to those levels?
 
Ok so far no change in ammonia level. Steady at 5 or so. Do I add drops or just keep it there and wait for a drop in ammonia??
 
Has there been data to compare a fishless cycle performed outside RO a fishless cycled performed indoors??
 
The target that you are working with is to see some decrease in ammonia and maybe a build of nitrites. I say maybe because other things than bacteria can gradually remove ammonia, including simple gas exchange at the water's surface. We commonly use the add and wait method as our main method here on TFF but the add daily method works about as well. WD is a long term experienced cycling adviser so I would look to him for excellent advice. Others like me and Tolak have enough experience to help you get through this with good success, but WD does it every day with great success rates.
As far as a fishless cycle vs a fish-in cycle, the data all seems to suggest that both are done with about equal success but that the fish-in situation can wear you out doing water changes.
Going outdoors has a distinct advantage. When you are working with natural sunlight, the plants in a container will grow and absorb nitrogen, even if you do not intentionally introduce plants. Algae are plants and there is little you can do to prevent some algae being introduced to a new container that is getting plenty of sunlight. Try asking some time in the planted area about algae and you will find that the main focus there is finding a way to be rid of algae. Whenever you have enough light to promote plant growth, you have enough light to have a "problem" with algae. Plant growth requires nitrogen so any plant, even a simple algae, will remove nitrogen from the water system. It is something that we need to know about when you are going through a cycle because plants of any kind can skew the results of a cycle.
 

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