Omg I have been moving water like dealers move crack. I'm sorry if that was a bad analogy, but something has got to give. I'm doing a fish in cycle. 20 gal. Live plants. 4 danios and a couple of pearl gouramis. I change the water twice a day. Morning and night. I'd say it's about a 50 % change everytime. I've been doing this now going on 4 weeks. My filter is brown with bacteria I guess. When will they start working. I just did a water change 10 min ago. About 80% and there's already .25ppm ammonia. 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate. I'm sure the fish will start kicking the bucket. I'm about to kick the bucket I'm doing water changes with. I have the zyme and ammo lock. What to do? My back hurts.
Will Water Changes Ever Stop!?!?
- Thread starter G-skrilla
- Start date
I am far from an expert but these are my thoughts.
A few things...
You are dechlorinating the water I hope. If you aren't that will prevent the bacteria from growing.
Assuming you are, I think you have too many fish in there. If you use fewer fish your tank will have its ammonium levels build slower.
Additionally, I think you are changing your water too often and too much.
I would recommend changing 10-15% of your water once every other day or once a day at most. Changing 80% of your water is going to cause a couple problems.
1) You are removing 80% of your nitrosomonas development. While the reproduction rate is high, you are significantly killing it.
2) You are removing too much ammonium. Doing the cycle with fish is ultimately poison for the fish but now that you have started it, you have to let them fight through higher levels of ammonium I think. Nitrosomonas will develop only if there is constantly an excess of ammonium. You need to have the levels reasonably high, have the bacteria start to replicate, establish a decent presence. If you are removing 80% of the ammonium you are never going to have a large enough bacteria base to deal with the ammonium levels your fish are producing.
I could be off base and I am sure an expert will step in and correct me if I am but I think your zeal at water changes is not only frustrating you and hurting your back, it is also counter productive.
A few things...
You are dechlorinating the water I hope. If you aren't that will prevent the bacteria from growing.
Assuming you are, I think you have too many fish in there. If you use fewer fish your tank will have its ammonium levels build slower.
Additionally, I think you are changing your water too often and too much.
I would recommend changing 10-15% of your water once every other day or once a day at most. Changing 80% of your water is going to cause a couple problems.
1) You are removing 80% of your nitrosomonas development. While the reproduction rate is high, you are significantly killing it.
2) You are removing too much ammonium. Doing the cycle with fish is ultimately poison for the fish but now that you have started it, you have to let them fight through higher levels of ammonium I think. Nitrosomonas will develop only if there is constantly an excess of ammonium. You need to have the levels reasonably high, have the bacteria start to replicate, establish a decent presence. If you are removing 80% of the ammonium you are never going to have a large enough bacteria base to deal with the ammonium levels your fish are producing.
I could be off base and I am sure an expert will step in and correct me if I am but I think your zeal at water changes is not only frustrating you and hurting your back, it is also counter productive.
onebto
Fish Herder
First question what are you using to test your water with?
what filter are you using?
I feal for you and admire your dedication to clean water but the work load is the price you pay for doing a fish in cycle.
When will it end? I have never done one but hopefully one of the fish in brigade will turn up and advise you, have you read the pinned subject about fish in cycleing in the resource centre of this forum?
Am i correct in saying you are cycling a 20 gallon tank with the following fish: 6 danios, 6 panda cats, 2 pearl gouramis, 1 marble angel, 1 black red tail shark, and 1 blue paradise. That is a lot of fish in such a small tank especially one that is not properly cycled! I am no stocking expert hopefully someone more in the know will post here on that.
I do not agree with tarpan entierly about over doing it with the water changes you will loose fish if the levels go up!
The very best thing for your tank would be to get some mature media to add to your filter that would improve things.
Bucket and back syndrome is cured by gettin a hose. My tank is in the living room about 8 meters from the kitchen sink I used to use a bucket 80% of a 450 litre tank hurt and took time plus I used to get spillage on the carpet (the wife went nuts)
Now i use a hose to draw out and fill up it takes easily half the time I have no bucket back ache its so easy it makes me cry maybe you should look into it?
Regards onebto
what filter are you using?
I feal for you and admire your dedication to clean water but the work load is the price you pay for doing a fish in cycle.
When will it end? I have never done one but hopefully one of the fish in brigade will turn up and advise you, have you read the pinned subject about fish in cycleing in the resource centre of this forum?
Am i correct in saying you are cycling a 20 gallon tank with the following fish: 6 danios, 6 panda cats, 2 pearl gouramis, 1 marble angel, 1 black red tail shark, and 1 blue paradise. That is a lot of fish in such a small tank especially one that is not properly cycled! I am no stocking expert hopefully someone more in the know will post here on that.
I do not agree with tarpan entierly about over doing it with the water changes you will loose fish if the levels go up!
The very best thing for your tank would be to get some mature media to add to your filter that would improve things.
Bucket and back syndrome is cured by gettin a hose. My tank is in the living room about 8 meters from the kitchen sink I used to use a bucket 80% of a 450 litre tank hurt and took time plus I used to get spillage on the carpet (the wife went nuts)
Now i use a hose to draw out and fill up it takes easily half the time I have no bucket back ache its so easy it makes me cry maybe you should look into it?
Regards onebto
anon02
Fishaholic
I would also disagree with most of post #2
You have to change enough water to keep the toxin concentrations between zero and 0.25ppm, there will still be plenty for the bacterial development at those levels
Is the brown stuff you mention limited to your filter or has it spread to your tank walls and ornaments ?
I also think that you have too many fish for fish in cycling, if you dont have a friend who could adopt all but the danios till you`re cycled you could feed just once every other day to reduce the waste
If you are seeing ammonia but no nitrite or nitrate it would suggest that you are still in a very early stage of cycling, have you tested your tapwater perameters ?
You have to change enough water to keep the toxin concentrations between zero and 0.25ppm, there will still be plenty for the bacterial development at those levels
Is the brown stuff you mention limited to your filter or has it spread to your tank walls and ornaments ?
I also think that you have too many fish for fish in cycling, if you dont have a friend who could adopt all but the danios till you`re cycled you could feed just once every other day to reduce the waste
If you are seeing ammonia but no nitrite or nitrate it would suggest that you are still in a very early stage of cycling, have you tested your tapwater perameters ?
How many live plants do you have? Is it densly planted?
waterdrop
Enthusiastic "Re-Beginner"
I think this accurately reflects the attitude found in the hobby for many decades, but that it is one we are slowly trying to move away from. I suspect in the years up through the 1950's the hobby gained this from the farming and many other areas where man was used to using animals to meet a human goal or purpose and the animal was thought of as an object in the process.
Listening to the analogy of "fish fighting through" brings to mind the "boys need to take a few bruises" image that I'm sure is still extant in many schoolyards and neighborhoods. We all anthropomorphize, we can't help it, but for the animals, it is a poor approach to understanding the world from their perspective I think. To continue to anthropomorphize a minute longer, perhaps a better analogy would be the following:
Your child somehow gets shut in to a closed garage with a running vehicle that is putting out exhaust. Instead of immediately going in and turning off the engine (re-homing the excess fish) or opening the garage door and windows (performing large enough water changes to bring ammonia and nitrite down to 0.25ppm or below) you decide it would be better to let your childs lungs soak up the poisons and hope that he won't be too worse off for the wear later in life, if he makes it through the episode.
The ball of cooled molten rock that spun around the sun somehow developed an incredibly thin little wisp of moisture and atmosphere and a stunningly beautiful garden of colorful creatures of all shapes and sizes and vulnerabilities evolved to sustain and entertain those of us lucky enough to observe them. As we begin to attempt to understand whether this thin little shell of life will continue forward forever on the spinning rock, rather than be used up by ourselves, we are often left grasping at how we can change our attitudes in ways that will make us better stewards...
(sorry, clear morning sky making me feel a rare bit poetic, please excuse
)Just to say however, the choice of whether the health and life of the fish or the process of quickly growing a biofilter is OURS... (to have and to hold, as they say.. for ultimately it is not just our spouse, but our children, our neighbors children and the whole living earth around us that we must find a place in our hearts to care about, if we want to survive.)
Just my 2 cents,
~~waterdrop~~
Test your tap water, both before dechlorinating and after. Try to get some mature media to get the cycle moving along if the tap water comes out at zero for ammonia. Many times you can get some from a local club, a list can be found here.
I agree what WD has stated, your nitrifying bacteria are not water borne, thus will not be removed by large water changes. They will establish themselves on areas with a lot of surface, as well as a constant source of ammonia & O2. That would be your filter media, and is the reason why mature media may help.
I agree what WD has stated, your nitrifying bacteria are not water borne, thus will not be removed by large water changes. They will establish themselves on areas with a lot of surface, as well as a constant source of ammonia & O2. That would be your filter media, and is the reason why mature media may help.
Thanks, I'm gonna find some mature media. I have tested the tap. No ammonia before or after dechlorination. I have a carbon filter. It's for a top fin filter. The tank is densely planted with 7 batches of anacharis. I guess I better just wait it out and continue with my water changes.
Aqua Tom
Fish Gatherer
You have far too many fish in there for the cycle to be efficient. 4 danios at the most will be enough.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Clearly people think I am wrong. I am skeptical that you will ever successfully cycle the tank with that size of water changes. Sure with that load you need to do those changes, but that is ultimately the problem. The load is too high.
IMO - offload the fish on someone else and do a fishless cycle. Move the fish back in afterwards.
Or, get the load to be a lot less to the point where you only need to do 10-15% water changes rather than 80%.
Clearly people think I am wrong. I am skeptical that you will ever successfully cycle the tank with that size of water changes. Sure with that load you need to do those changes, but that is ultimately the problem. The load is too high.
IMO - offload the fish on someone else and do a fishless cycle. Move the fish back in afterwards.
Or, get the load to be a lot less to the point where you only need to do 10-15% water changes rather than 80%.
Rogue4Fish
Fish Crazy
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I did a fish-in cycle and probably only change 20% of water once a day, every day...seems you're changing far too much but having too due to the amount of fish.
I'd take some back to the shop where you bought them and just cycle with just 4. You'll find it a lot less stressful.
I'd take some back to the shop where you bought them and just cycle with just 4. You'll find it a lot less stressful.
Also just read your comment in planted section saying your plants are dieing if this is the case they will be adding a great deal to your waste and therefore ammonia. Only healthy plants aid in asorbing nitrogen as either ammonia,nitrite or nitrate. Unhealthy plants will fowl up the water further. Get some elodea densa or horn wort or similar very low care plants that grow quickly if you just want to remove ammonia/nitrite/nitrate. You can always replace them with something more pleasing to the eye later. Also reducing your stock and feeding will reduce your water changes.
You can now see why a fish in cycle is a bad idea - not only because the fish suffer but because of the extremely hard work it is to keep the toxic levels down! You are going to have to carry on as you are for at least 6-8 weeks. Keep doing large water changes - you wont kill any bacteria - they are growing in the filter and wont be affected by water changes, it may slow the process a little but its more important to keep your fish healthy! Keep the feeding to a minimum as any excess food will only add to your problems!
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