Will hornwort's alleopathic chemicals affect growth in other plants?

[WhistlingBadger]

A lot of behavioural problems come from pent up energy in fish that should be running in flows (nippy zebra danios anyone?), and a lot of captive fish from fast water end up with obesity issues or lousy muscle tone.

Filters are not just for the cycle. That you can handle with water changes. But for many species, water should move.

Agreed. I think 10tanks has a point as far as water cleanliness goes, but there's more to an a good habitat than that. My choprae danios really struggled with the current in my hillstream tank when I first got them; they spent most of their time hiding in the rocks. Now that they've gotten in shape? They are out frolicking in the current all the time, and I can't imagine keeping them in a still tank. Not all fish thrive in flowing mountain streams, but most do naturally live in moving water.

 

[10 Tanks]

I will disagree strongly with this. You still need oxygen, which comes in via agitated water, and I use many filters to move water for fish from creeks, streams, etc.The number of fish species that come from still water is very small, and we can't meet the needs of most fish by water changes alone. We must look at the needs of each species individually, and if we want them to live well and to show us more natural behaviour, we have to use mechanical means to move water.

A lot of behavioural problems come from pent up energy in fish that should be running in flows (nippy zebra danios anyone?), and a lot of captive fish from fast water end up with obesity issues or lousy muscle tone.

Filters are not just for the cycle. That you can handle with water changes. But for many species, water should move.

Hello Gary. Actually, by forcing oxygen into the tank water during the water changing process you should be doing regularly, the oxygen level will remain high between water changes. So, you don't need to circulate the water to keep pushing oxygen in. The surface water is also exposed to oxygen in the air. I believe if you go back to your high school chemistry book and look up "Henry's Law", you'll find the answers.

10 Tanks (Now 11)

 

[UnityLover]

Hm, it's a pity my tank is too small to support N. lutea! (I'm having a bit of a duckweed problem at the moment)

Anyway, @Byron , I assume these are fairly recent studies? I seem to remember that the science was inconclusive about aquatic plant allelopathy and no one had quite figured out how to study it scientifically, as you mentioned. I seem to remember that even Walstad referred to it more as an anecdotal phenomenon than as hard science. I could be mistaken about that as it's been a few years since I read her book. I would be interested in reading the specific studies you mention.

Whatever the case, Unitylover, it isn't something to worry about. I usually plant my new tanks with a wide variety of plant species, knowing that over time some will gradually die out and others will come to dominate. I suspect allelopathy is part of this, along with the fact that each tank has slightly different conditions, and some plants adapt better than others. Plant your tank in a way that suits you, add some variety, and see what happens.

Im planning to (hopefully) have the majority of my tank planted with cover, for the betta that will live inside it.

 

[UnityLover]

I will disagree strongly with this. You still need oxygen, which comes in via agitated water, and I use many filters to move water for fish from creeks, streams, etc.The number of fish species that come from still water is very small, and we can't meet the needs of most fish by water changes alone. We must look at the needs of each species individually, and if we want them to live well and to show us more natural behaviour, we have to use mechanical means to move water.

A lot of behavioural problems come from pent up energy in fish that should be running in flows (nippy zebra danios anyone?), and a lot of captive fish from fast water end up with obesity issues or lousy muscle tone.

Filters are not just for the cycle. That you can handle with water changes. But for many species, water should move.

Ill water change weekly, 20%. I will have low flow since its a betta tank, but im gonna have a filter that will give some surface agitation to give oxygen and stop biofilm from forming.

 

[Byron]

Hm, it's a pity my tank is too small to support N. lutea! (I'm having a bit of a duckweed problem at the moment)

Anyway, @Byron , I assume these are fairly recent studies? I seem to remember that the science was inconclusive about aquatic plant allelopathy and no one had quite figured out how to study it scientifically, as you mentioned. I seem to remember that even Walstad referred to it more as an anecdotal phenomenon than as hard science. I could be mistaken about that as it's been a few years since I read her book. I would be interested in reading the specific studies you mention.

Whatever the case, Unitylover, it isn't something to worry about. I usually plant my new tanks with a wide variety of plant species, knowing that over time some will gradually die out and others will come to dominate. I suspect allelopathy is part of this, along with the fact that each tank has slightly different conditions, and some plants adapt better than others. Plant your tank in a way that suits you, add some variety, and see what happens.

My earlier comments were from Diana's book, so if you have that, check chapter 3, she has dozens of references for the points she makes.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

My earlier comments were from Diana's book, so if you have that, check chapter 3, she has dozens of references for the points she makes.

Hm, must be time to read Ecology again. Been a couple years.

 

[10 Tanks]

Ill water change weekly, 20%. I will have low flow since its a betta tank, but im gonna have a filter that will give some surface agitation to give oxygen and stop biofilm from forming.

Hello again. By changing 20 percent of the water, you're leaving 80 percent of the fish and plant waste remaining. The fish and plants will certainly add to that 80 percent by the next water change. So, the fish are living in water that is 80 percent polluted. Not the best environment. Now, if you reversed things, which tank would you say is the healthier?

10 Tanks (Now 11)

 

[UnityLover]

Hello again. By changing 20 percent of the water, you're leaving 80 percent of the fish and plant waste remaining. The fish and plants will certainly add to that 80 percent by the next water change. So, the fish are living in water that is 80 percent polluted. Not the best environment. Now, if you reversed things, which tank would you say is the healthier?

10 Tanks (Now 11)

Wont the plants eat up all the ammonia from the fish? The fish im using arent exactly big poopers like goldfish.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

Wont the plants eat up all the ammonia from the fish? The fish im using arent exactly big poopers like goldfish.

Water change size is an ongoing debate on the forums. People have very strong feelings about certain percentages, and sometimes these debates get weirdly heated. In your case I think 20-50% per week will be sufficient. Nitrates aren't the only reason we do water changes, but they are a good indicator of what's happening. Keep testing, and if you notice your nitrates rising, increase the size and/or frequency. The reverse isn't necessarily true, though: If your nitrates are low, don't stop doing your weekly changes, because there are other waste products, hormones, and such building up that the test kits don't measure.

Hello again. By changing 20 percent of the water, you're leaving 80 percent of the fish and plant waste remaining. The fish and plants will certainly add to that 80 percent by the next water change. So, the fish are living in water that is 80 percent polluted. Not the best environment. Now, if you reversed things, which tank would you say is the healthier?

Your point is taken, but it isn't quite as simple as that. Plants are constantly destroying fish waste; filters are constantly converting it into less toxic forms. Based on my research, some fish prefer frequent, small water changes rather than huge ones like you recommend. There is almost always more than one way to do things.

 

[GaryE]

Hello Gary. Actually, by forcing oxygen into the tank water during the water changing process you should be doing regularly, the oxygen level will remain high between water changes. So, you don't need to circulate the water to keep pushing oxygen in. The surface water is also exposed to oxygen in the air. I believe if you go back to your high school chemistry book and look up "Henry's Law", you'll find the answers.

10 Tanks (Now 11)

Ah, but if you read my entire post, you only answered part of the point made. Henry's law seems a straw man in context.

Agreed. I think 10tanks has a point as far as water cleanliness goes, but there's more to an a good habitat than that. My choprae danios really struggled with the current in my hillstream tank when I first got them; they spent most of their time hiding in the rocks. Now that they've gotten in shape? They are out frolicking in the current all the time, and I can't imagine keeping them in a still tank. Not all fish thrive in flowing mountain streams, but most do naturally live in moving water.

What @WhistlingBadger noted there is important. A lot of aquarium fish are in terrible shape. When I started up the very powerful laminar flow pump in my 120 of rainbows, I had to ramp it up in 5 increments because the poor fish couldn't swim anymore. After a few weeks, they were active and strong moving in very natural currents for their species. They look healthier and are like different fish now.
When I kept Geophagus argyrostictus in usual Geo conditions, they were downright nasty to each other. I lost a few to violence. A friend who had them in with a high flow pump (because he had caught them in rapids conditions) had zero aggression. Lesson learned.

You ducked the behavioural issues, and the effect water movement combined with changes has on aggression.

I mean, my puppy gets oxygen and clean air along with a good diet, but I also let her go for runs, and walk her a lot on a leash. Like a dog, an active fish needs activity, and an unfiltered tank doesn't offer that. I have a tank of lampeyes I was in on catching 2 weeks ago, in Gabon. The stream was hard for me to walk in, and I am reasonably fit. It was rushing water, and the fish were found racing in the flow's edges. In another stream, I held my net in the highest flow and let the beautiful lampeyes rush into it. Would you keep those fish in non moving tanks? If you do, good luck with it.

For their shortened lifespan, they'd hover and droop, listelessly nipping. Here, they are little bolts of electricity in constant movement against the current, looping aound and setting up again. That's what I saw in the rivers I found them in.

 

[UnityLover]

Ah, but if you read my entire post, you only answered part of the point made. Henry's law seems a straw man in context.


What @WhistlingBadger noted there is important. A lot of aquarium fish are in terrible shape. When I started up the very powerful laminar flow pump in my 120 of rainbows, I had to ramp it up in 5 increments because the poor fish couldn't swim anymore. After a few weeks, they were active and strong moving in very natural currents for their species. They look healthier and are like different fish now.
When I kept Geophagus argyrostictus in usual Geo conditions, they were downright nasty to each other. I lost a few to violence. A friend who had them in with a high flow pump (because he had caught them in rapids conditions) had zero aggression. Lesson learned.

You ducked the behavioural issues, and the effect water movement combined with changes has on aggression.

I mean, my puppy gets oxygen and clean air along with a good diet, but I also let her go for runs, and walk her a lot on a leash. Like a dog, an active fish needs activity, and an unfiltered tank doesn't offer that. I have a tank of lampeyes I was in on catching 2 weeks ago, in Gabon. The stream was hard for me to walk in, and I am reasonably fit. It was rushing water, and the fish were found racing in the flow's edges. In another stream, I held my net in the highest flow and let the beautiful lampeyes rush into it. Would you keep those fish in non moving tanks? If you do, good luck with it.

For their shortened lifespan, they'd hover and droop, listelessly nipping. Here, they are little bolts of electricity in constant movement against the current, looping aound and setting up again. That's what I saw in the rivers I found them in.

This tank will be a betta tank, so low flow, but the next is going to be a 15 gallon community tank, with some hillstream loaches (high flow) and maybe chili rasboras or danios. Only the upper part of the tank will have the rotational high flow, the lower tank is meant to be calmer.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

This tank will be a betta tank, so low flow, but the next is going to be a 15 gallon community tank, with some hillstream loaches (high flow) and maybe chili rasboras or danios. Only the upper part of the tank will have the rotational high flow, the lower tank is meant to be calmer.

I'd stick with chilis for a 15 gallon. Most danios are far too hyperactive to be happy in a 15 gallon.

 

[UnityLover]

I'd stick with chilis for a 15 gallon. Most danios are far too hyperactive to be happy in a 15 gallon.

got it.

 

[Byron]

the next is going to be a 15 gallon community tank, with some hillstream loaches (high flow) and maybe chili rasboras or danios.

This is problematic. Once you decide on Hillstream Loaches, you are creating quite a unique environment in order to provide what they need to do well. Particularly the strong current, and the low temperature. Chili rasboras do not match either of these, so they are not going to be a good choice. Here is some data on this species, Boraras brigittae:

Origin and Habitat: Endemic to southwestern Borneo, Indonesia. Occurs in dimly-lit and slow-moving quiet blackwater streams and ponds in forest peat swamps.​

Water parameters: Very soft (hardness < 10 dGH) acidic (pH below 7) water, temperature 25-28C/77-82F.​

Danios, if Zebra Danio was meant, I concur with @WhistlingBadger but there are many other small cyprinids that might be suited here. We had a couple threads recently on some of them. I'm not up on all of these, they have always been outside my availability. I know the White Cloud Mountain Minnow Tanichthys albonubes works, though a lively swimmer but a 24-inch tank is minimum (the basic 15g is 24 inches length).

 

[UnityLover]

This is problematic. Once you decide on Hillstream Loaches, you are creating quite a unique environment in order to provide what they need to do well. Particularly the strong current, and the low temperature. Chili rasboras do not match either of these, so they are not going to be a good choice. Here is some data on this species, Boraras brigittae:

Origin and Habitat: Endemic to southwestern Borneo, Indonesia. Occurs in dimly-lit and slow-moving quiet blackwater streams and ponds in forest peat swamps.​

Water parameters: Very soft (hardness < 10 dGH) acidic (pH below 7) water, temperature 25-28C/77-82F.​

Danios, if Zebra Danio was meant, I concur with @WhistlingBadger but there are many other small cyprinids that might be suited here. We had a couple threads recently on some of them. I'm not up on all of these, they have always been outside my availability. I know the White Cloud Mountain Minnow Tanichthys albonubes works, though a lively swimmer but a 24-inch tank is minimum (the basic 15g is 24 inches length).

Girl talks fish was able to successfully keep them at tropical temperatures.