Why We Should Not Fishless Cycle Planted Tanks.

[lljdma06]

love it Supercoley!just don't show this to the 'new freshwater tank' section.

Seems to be a lot of this kind of attitude I thought this was one forum and not each section trying to be top dog ?

No, you just have a different approach to "cycling" in Planted tanks than you would in a fish only freshwater tank and initially, this could possibly lead to confusion. I completely endorse fishless cycling in fish-only aquariums. When you plant the tank following the methods stated above (not just 2-3 plants in a tank, but at least 50-75% of the substrate covered), you don't need to cycle in the traditional sense of the word.

 

[nwzzz]

Ok after reading Dave's guid, I have a few questions. I'm a newbie on planted tanks. So, here I go:
1. I don't have access to Mulm. When Dave says the plants will need ammonia, where are you getting the ammonia from? Are you adding fish as soon as you add the plants?
2. Can I use a home-made CO2 injector for the plants?
3. In the section "Dosing and Water Changes", What do you Dose at full level?
4. Do I need a filter if i use this method ? or just something to have circulation but no ammonia filtration as it will be done by the plants?

That's all for now. Thanks.

-Wasif

 

[SuperColey1]

To the poster above. We are not several sections trying to out do each other. However due to the kind of setup we run we do a lot of research on things like nitrate and have 'on average' more of a handle on the truths of things like this. Thats not to say we are right and others are wrong but it doesn't hurt to set some things straight especially when those who are not planted believe that nitrates and phosphates are extremely dangerous and/or that they cause algae.

Whilst we do have different systems to a standard freshwater there are some subjects that cross over both ways. Due to our subject matter we use the descriptive word 'nutrient' where others use the descriptive word toxin. Both for the same sunject but due to our need to understand this particular subject in depth we tend to have a slightly better and more up to date knowledge of it. Different strategies for different goals it could be said but still those who think high nitrates are deadly are often looking much lower than is commonly understood to be 'fact' these days

1. I don't have access to Mulm. When Dave says the plants will need ammonia, where are you getting the ammonia from? Are you adding fish as soon as you add the plants?

No problem on the mulm. that is just to give bacteria a head start at the beginning.

Ammonia is just a nitrogen source. Nitrites and niurate the same. Your tap water will have a decent amount of nitrate already in it. then when the fish go in they will add ammonia plus some from rotting matter which then will be taken mostly by the plants and a teeny bit from the bacteria in the substrate and filter to produce nitrite and then nitrate and the process continues.

2. Can I use a home-made CO2 injector for the plants?]/quote]
On a 29USG? YES but you are at the upper limit sizewise. You will more than likely need 2-3 bottles overlapped to get CO2 right.

3. In the section "Dosing and Water Changes", What do you Dose at full level?

Depends on the amount of plants, light etc. There is no 1 size fits all to dosing. It is dependent on the method you are using and in most cases the uptake.

4. Do I need a filter if i use this method ? or just something to have circulation but no ammonia filtration as it will be done by the plants?

You ddon't NEED a filter but I would suggest using one. There is more to filtration than just removing ammonia. The plants will not remove particles from the water. They will also not provide a good circulation/current in the tank.

AC

 

[nwzzz]

Thanks AC, and therefore this is what I'll do:

First, I'll remove the ammonia filter and leave the rest so bacteria develops in the biomax and small particles are caught in the foam. I'll also put the filter at it's lowest speed as it has a powerful motor and causes a lot of water turbulence. I'll also fill up the tank higher.

Second, I'll put in enough plants to cover 70% of the substrate with plants suggested for angelfish tank. I'll also get a 65W Power Compact light. I'll also tie the java moss to the wood with fishing line and see how it grows under 65W. If it rots, I'll take it off.

I'll do some more research into good starter fishes for Angelfish tank and start off with a few and I'll take another look at my CO2 options.

Thanks, will update the tank and post on how it goes.

-Wasif

 

[SuperColey1]

Slow down a little, you are assuming a few things from what I have writeen here

First, I'll remove the ammonia filter and leave the rest so bacteria develops in the biomax and small particles are caught in the foam. I'll also put the filter at it's lowest speed as it has a powerful motor and causes a lot of water turbulence. I'll also fill up the tank higher.

You want the surface turbulence and I'm not understanding the filling of the tank higher aspect. The surface turbulence will bring more O into the water and bacteria need O. Plants need O and fish need O. There is absolutely no problem in a planted tank with surface turbulence at any stage

I'll put in enough plants to cover 70% of the substrate with plants suggested for angelfish tank.

Great stuuf. I take it this is a 'tall' 29USG with angelfish going in.

I'll also get a 65W Power Compact light. I'll also tie the java moss to the wood with fishing line and see how it grows under 65W. If it rots, I'll take it off.

If you haven't upgraded yet then get linears (full length tubes) not CFs. You won't be needing that kind of wattage over a community tank.

AC

 

[nwzzz]

Hmm, first of all, I'm loving the response time and the help
Ok, so right now I have a 18000k 20W and I read that a 4200k or 6700k is better for plants.
So, for adding high light plants such as echinodorus amazonicus, argentinensis, cordifolius, and tenellus, I can use this tube light?
And I'll keep the surface turbulence for the O as long as the fishes don't get batted around too much right?
Yea, this is a 29USG 18" tall.

 

[SuperColey1]

Hmm, first of all, I'm loving the response time and the help

Don't get used to the response time. It can sometimes be a while. You're just lucky someone is reading

Ok, so right now I have a 18000k 20W and I read that a 4200k or 6700k is better for plants.

Yep 2 x full length in that range is fine.

So, for adding high light plants such as echinodorus amazonicus, argentinensis, cordifolius, and tenellus, I can use this tube light?

Not too sure they're highlight? definately not the sword.

And I'll keep the surface turbulence for the O as long as the fishes don't get batted around too much right?

Lol too much is said r.e. fishes or plants get blown about. lol

Have the flow pushing as fast as possible down the back edge or front edge and watch which side the fishes go!!! Straight for the fast current. Its exercise, they play games in the fast current. There will always be some much more serene flow areas to get away from the current if they want it.

AC

 

[nwzzz]

Ok, by 2x that length, you mean a Twin Tube fixture with 4200K or 6700K 20W lights?

 

[SuperColey1]

Ok, by 2x that length, you mean a Twin Tube fixture with 4200K or 6700K 20W lights?

yep. a ttwin tube ficcture not a bent tube. retail if preferred but a retrofit would be better spacing

AC

 

[nwzzz]

Edit: I was reading one of your other posts and the T5 and T8s are very expensive here in the US. I ordered a 4200K a few days ago and it's on it's way. I don't know how to convert this single light system into a double light =( Any help would be appreciated. This is basically what I have:
http/www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl3684/cp18360/si1378947/cl0/allglasssinglestriplight30black

Edit: would this work for me? I don't have a garage to work out of, but I can probably build this http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/317197-how-to-upgrade-lighting/page__hl__retrofit__fromsearch__1

 

[DTLP]

Hi,

I'm new at this and am in the process of setting up a new 128 litre tank and I would like to set it up as planted. I was going to do a fishless cycle but after reading this forum I'm not shore which way to go.

I've already got some Natural Wood (currently in soak) and few plants (not shore of their names) and I was going to run a non-co2 tank, so I picked up a bottle of Easy Life - Easycarbo - carbon fertilizer for plants and a Easy Life - ProFito - fertilizer extra complete for the plants. Was told they were good for growing plants in a non-co2 tank?

But what should I do now I've got the plants, run the cycle with plants or store the plants and add them after finishing the cycling of the tank

I also was wondering about my current Lighting:
The tank came with, Fluorescent Lamp 2GLL 2x24W + 10000k (double bulbs one white one blue x2) should I be looking at changing the bulbs?

Thanks

 

[SuperColey1]

Sorry missed this probs too late now but..........

I don't know how to convert this single light system into a double light =( Any help would be appreciated. This is basically what I have:
http/www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl3684/cp18360/si1378947/cl0/allglasssinglestriplight30black-

Yes that unit looks fine. Just make sure the tube is OK.

Yes T5 and T8 are expensive in the US. They are expensive here in the UK too unless you don't buy the aquarium tubes which are no different to normal ones except for the word printed on it A Q U A R I U M.

I was going to run a non-co2 tank, so I picked up a bottle of Easy Life - Easycarbo - carbon fertilizer for plants and a Easy Life - ProFito - fertilizer extra complete for the plants. Was told they were good for growing plants in a non-co2 tank?

Well thats a bit of a mix up there. A non CO2 tank does not use liquid carbon. Also ferts are good for growing plants in any setup not just a non CO2 tank. That is if it is needed. The question on a non CO2 tank is where are the ferts coming from. Are there enough already with fish waste and excess food or do we need to supplement.

However if the LFS you bought it from made that suggestion then they're not the ones to get advice r.e. plants. Why?

First up you tell the salesman....erm I mean advisor, that you are setting up a non CO2 planted tank and he suggests you need liquid C......either he wasn't listening or he is pushing you away from the non CO2 method. Although liquid C is not CO2 it is a substitute. To top it all off he sells you a fertiliser that has no N and P in it. Now this is not to mention that yes with the liquid C you will need ferts (including N and P) but would you without the liquid C.

Essentially he made 2 sales there and you may well not need the latter without the former!!! And without the former you may not need the latter at all.

But what should I do now I've got the plants, run the cycle with plants or store the plants and add them after finishing the cycling of the tank

You need to read from the first post again. You are talking about cycling. We are talking about not cycling. You are asking 2 different things here.
a - Should you run the cycle with the plants in......ermm the pages prior were telling you there will be either zero cycling with the plants in or it will be silent in that you and the fish do not even notice it.
b - Should you run the cycle then put the plants in - you've not understood the concept we're talking about here. You are proposing to build a bacteria colony and then put the plants in which will starve the colony you just built.

I also was wondering about my current Lighting:
The tank came with, Fluorescent Lamp 2GLL 2x24W + 10000k (double bulbs one white one blue x2) should I be looking at changing the bulbs?

Yes you don't want the blue and that is plenty plenty of light for your tank. Very close to having to use CO2 but try without first.

AC

 

[theshadowinc]

Rotala Macrandra is one that requires strong lighting could put it in my tank and not worry about it, requires co2, these are requirements for this plant thats just one example

Indeed as Aaron says this plant will do fine under low light as will most 'supposed' high light plants. With the highlight theories now truly blown out of the water on the barrreport where a single T5HO tube is supplying enough PAR for carpeting (approx 50 at substrate and 150ish at the water surface) I am now onto working on getting 'high CO2' plants to grow in non CO2 tanks.

The problem people have is that they bang on about 3WPG. What they don't see is that you don't need 3WPG unless it is badly positioned. If we use standard T8s (lesser PAR per tube/less intensity) we need more tubes. That is good because then we can get the 50/150 PAR all over the tank by spreading them further apart and this also eliminates a lot of shading.

What we should look at rather than the amount of light over the tank is the amount of light at the substrate. More lights spaced means that areas that were shaded and therefore may not have grown something now will because the light suddenly becomes available.

Also the higher the CO2 is the lower you can go with the lighting because the plant uses less energy from gleaning CO2 and can spend it utilising the light better.

I am currently testing HC (which even I have said is a CO2 lover and not high light lover) in a non CO2 relatively low light Nano. Watch this space. Maybe another 'theory' about to go BOOM

AC

I am interested alot in your findings as I know this plant myself is a sugar starving plant it loves the sugars that co2 provides, what are you doing different thats showing the theory to be wrong are you agitating the water? For the simpel reason all water has some form of PPM of sugars needed(co2). I would be interested in the science you came up with if you found the theory to go boom.

 

[SuperColey1]

I am interested alot in your findings as I know this plant myself is a sugar starving plant it loves the sugars that co2 provides, what are you doing different thats showing the theory to be wrong are you agitating the water? For the simpel reason all water has some form of PPM of sugars needed(co2). I would be interested in the science you came up with if you found the theory to go boom.

The Rotala MACrandra was tested in a pressurised CO2 tank under low light (0.9WPG) and that was before I even mastered getting the circulation right. It gre, healthy and red but a little leggy. No pruning to bush it up though which explains its appearance there. If I were to try that experiment nowadays then I am pretty sure I could get a lovely bushy specimen going there. However I no longer have CO2.

On the HC front I have some in a non CO2 nano at the moment. 5 weeks in and some growth but because of no CO2 is incredibly slow. We are talking 20x or more growth rate with CO2 for any plant!!!!

You have to consider a few things here.

In a CO2 enriched aquarium yes we are aiming at 30ppm but at the substrate we are only measuring in the low single figures. 8 or less.

In a non CO2 setup the substrate is very important It is being used in conjunction with no water changes and no substrate maintenance to decompose and produce CO2.

Therefore in a full on non CO2 no water change method with the correct setup substrate wise it is feasible that the ppm in the substrate area could be matching the substrate level in a hi tec tank. The decomposition of the substrate means that you can virtually match the CO2 ppm close to the substrate.

However another failing on my part here is that my Nano has nothing except for Leonardite (another source of C) under inert sand so it is not ideal for decomposition.

So I cannot confirm the 'BOOM' but I can confirm it will grow in non CO2 conditions:

This small amount here:

And 5 weeks later, still alive, still lush and some growth too:

Will take along time to fill

AC

 

[fishy16]

To all those myth spreaders and sooth sayers:

I put fish in as soon as the water is up to temperature!!!!
I have not done a water change for 8 months!!!!
I add nitrate and phosphate if I need to and will add excess if I want to!!!!
I will add CO2 to a very high level without fear of killing fish!!!!
I have nearly 20x the tank volume in circulation without fear of blowing fish away!!!!
I use excessively low amounts of light to achieve heavy growth!!!!
My fine sand substrate is over 3 years old and is not cleaned or stirred!!!!
I ignore the 'tolerant temperatures' that are given for each particular fish. Between 22 and 28 suits all the fish I ever had

I am sure there are more, but the point that this post was making is:

There are rules that are suggested. They can be quite useful to follow BUT it is not a 1 rule suits all scenario. Once you go from a 'decorative' tank to a planted tank You have changed the system. You have added natural filtration. You have probably just given your fish an environment that they will love more and more.

In essence read the articles, look into things with open mind and sort the myth from the reality. Take the rule but then research if it applies to your setup. Thats how most of us in planted learnt that the majority were wrong. That they had transferred a rule from 1 setup to all other setups.

Rant over

AC

I do feel for you, i just read over the last 5 pages of this thread and wonder how you can be so patient.People ask the same question over and over again and you keep your cool. People please read the last 5 pages! You have answered so many of the questions that i have had going round in my head over the whole "cycling" business. I wanted lots of plants in my new tank and this has been an inspiration for me. 18 years ago when my parents had tanks they didnt do the whole cycling process BUT they had loads of plants! Fish didnt die all the time and ive been trying to explain this to my son and trying to get him to put in way more plants than he has, and is getting loads of problems with his nitrates ect. You just made me a happy( and smug) Mum