Why is this forum useful

[kiko]

I didn't go there for fish...much less readings...I just wanted to swim in a waterfall in the amazon xD
And there's no guides at least to the place we went...so it was pretty much save the google maps on the phone in case we got lost
and me and my Maria took on the adventure xD

 

[DragonScales+Doubletails]

If this forum didn't exist I would spew fish-related info at people who don't care.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I will not point fingers I will just say what I know and why I know it. I have been breeding B&W Hypancistrus from the Volta grande )aka Big Bend) of the Rio XIngu since 2006 when I started with zebras. I have since worked with 236 and 173. I have worked with others but they are from different Amazon tributaries. I have sat and talked with Hans georg-Evers and Ingo Seidel specifically about the fish I keep and both of these gents have been there many times. Hans has actually dived with some of the fishermen collecting zebras before they became illegal to export.

The water in which they live is warm. It can go into the low 90s F at the peak of the dry season. They can only live where they do because the Xingu is filled with areas of major rapids which keep the water well oxygenated. Some of the fish are only found in the Big bend and no other river or place in the Xingu. The reason is that at either end of the Big Bend are areas of deeper water whic is slower moving. it doesn't contain enough oxygen.

I keep my fish in the low to mid 80sF. On the rrare occasiobns when I have to simulate a dry/rainy season I move the tanks temps to about 92F before dropping it into the mid 790s in the space of 40-60 hours using two large water changes.

As for discus in Ecuador, there is a wild population which was introduced. They did not naturally inhabit Ecuadorian waters before then. And no, discus cannot survive 10C (50F) water. Somebody needs to look up the definition of tropical fish.

A few years back I shipped a box of zebras from NY to TX. I used Express Mail which is normally flown by FedEx. The box went via Chicgo and while changing flights the facility there had an accident and a barrel of toxic material was dropped and broke open. Nothing went into or out of the facility for the a while. My box was decayed over 24 hours. I only used 24 haour heat packs so they were long gone and it was early April, When the box arived the buyer checked the temps. 3 bags - one at 59F and the other two at 60F.

There were two DOAs. Because I am a nug about searching the research literature I had discovered that the best way to help fish which are at either end of the temperature exremes that will kill them, the best way to help them is to get them back into the proper temp. water ASAP- no acclimation. because he followed my instructions only two more fish dies over the next two days.

When I kept discus I had them in the low 80s and I had to park two zebras in with them for a few years.

Anybody who claims you can put discus into 10C water is either wanting you to kill your fish or has no clue.

 

[kiko]

I will not point fingers I will just say what I know and why I know it. I have been breeding B&W Hypancistrus from the Volta grande )aka Big Bend) of the Rio XIngu since 2006 when I started with zebras. I have since worked with 236 and 173. I have worked with others but they are from different Amazon tributaries. I have sat and talked with Hans georg-Evers and Ingo Seidel specifically about the fish I keep and both of these gents have been there many times. Hans has actually dived with some of the fishermen collecting zebras before they became illegal to export.

The water in which they live is warm. It can go into the low 90s F at the peak of the dry season. They can only live where they do because the Xingu is filled with areas of major rapids which keep the water well oxygenated. Some of the fish are only found in the Big bend and no other river or place in the Xingu. The reason is that at either end of the Big Bend are areas of deeper water whic is slower moving. it doesn't contain enough oxygen.

I keep my fish in the low to mid 80sF. On the rrare occasiobns when I have to simulate a dry/rainy season I move the tanks temps to about 92F before dropping it into the mid 790s in the space of 40-60 hours using two large water changes.

As for discus in Ecuador, there is a wild population which was introduced. They did not naturally inhabit Ecuadorian waters before then. And no, discus cannot survive 10C (50F) water. Somebody needs to look up the definition of tropical fish.

A few years back I shipped a box of zebras from NY to TX. I used Express Mail which is normally flown by FedEx. The box went via Chicgo and while changing flights the facility there had an accident and a barrel of toxic material was dropped and broke open. Nothing went into or out of the facility for the a while. My box was decayed over 24 hours. I only used 24 haour heat packs so they were long gone and it was early April, When the box arived the buyer checked the temps. 3 bags - one at 59F and the other two at 60F.

There were two DOAs. Because I am a nug about searching the research literature I had discovered that the best way to help fish which are at either end of the temperature exremes that will kill them, the best way to help them is to get them back into the proper temp. water ASAP- no acclimation. because he followed my instructions only two more fish dies over the next two days.

When I kept discus I had them in the low 80s and I had to park two zebras in with them for a few years.

Anybody who claims you can put discus into 10C water is either wanting you to kill your fish or has no clue.

Oi, tão podemos falar Português já que foste buscar os peixes ao Rio Xingu deves bem entender ou falar a língua pois aquela gente lá não fala ponta de inglês.
Dizeres que a temperatura baixa é de 32C, quando eu já lá estive a nadar é de rir ao menos.
PS: Volta Grande means Big Turn or Long way depending on the context.

 

[kiko]

oks...after doing some research in government websites and so on...here are the facts:
temps during summer where air temp is 40C+

then in winter:

"the temperatures from rivers change between 21C-23C and that's why some walks just like the fluctuations require neoprene clothing to minimize the cold.
In the rivers with waterfalls the temperature can be a little lower as it diminishes with each fall.
A curious thing is that the temperature doesn't change much according to the weather season. In the winter, due to the thermal sensation, feels almost like the water is even hotter.
The scenery is so beautiful that we almost forget the water is cold, so we always recommend taking extra towels and dry clothing for a clothing change later."

The 2 screenshot is from a local Travel Agency as I couldn't find a single winter study on water temps.
The places I swam in were either waterfalls or pools by them which to me felt cold...I'd say around 14/15C and those statements of having to use neoprene clothing actually match what I felt xD

- reading meanings from the first screenshot are: dissolved oxygen, temperature, ph, redox potential, conductivity, quality (NTU values), solar radiation. over a 2 day period during Brazilian summer season.
I found this 3 year environmental study for the same region (no water temps):

Classificação fitogeográfica das florestas do Alto Rio Xingu

Este trabalho propõe a inclusão da categoria Floresta Estacional Perenifólia no sistema oficial...

www.scielo.br

but basically the air temps in winter go down to 18C but with air temps at 40C+ and water at around 26-29C in summer
that 21-23C water temps from the 2nd screenshot then would match the 18C air temps in winter.
PS: my previous pics were taken in may (fall/winter there)
here's a date from google photos:

top left corner...

I guess some people ought to back up their stuff instead of mouthing off on hearsay.
I understand keeping discus or zebras in 28C as it's literally a movement created by god knows who and these fish have been bred so many times that the new generations are literally used to it.
But if people want to mimick their own environment or happen to get wild caught I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be too happy at 28C all year round
So instead of saying I spoke with A B or C....how about studies done on this?
is A B or C a scientist? has he/she published any papers on a year round study? or is just a traveller that goes there on vacation during Carnaval and makes a detour to the Amazon?
Now...I'm not a discus/pleco breeder but I'm sure there could also be reasons for the 28C.
Maybe a breeder has had more fry by doing this and spread this information as such.
Just because I come from a hot country doesn't mean I like to be sleeping in 40C at night time during summer..the same goes for any animal.
But people stating that these fish need heaters because it's what they're used to...yeah...for 3 months of the year...
So yeah...I get the New Zealand guy about 14C...but in Canada at 21C+ inside the house no freaking way anybody needs a heater.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

OK- whatever you need.
de Sousa, L.M., Lucanus, O., Arroyo-Mora, J.P. and Kalacska, M., 2021. Conservation and trade of the endangered Hypancistrus zebra (Siluriformes, Loricariidae), one of the most trafficked Brazilian fish. Global Ecology and Conservation, 27, p.e01570.

Fig. 3. Hypancistrus zebra requires a very specific underwater habitat consisting of giant gneiss boulders and warm water (>28 °C) with low to moderate current. Contrary to what is commonly believed, it is not a rheophilic species, and therefore is not found in the rapids. A) Aerial photograph of a collection of gneiss boulders from a known zebra pleco habitat in relatively shallow water. B) Hypancistrus zebra habitat underwater, the species prefers deep horizontal crevices caused by fractured boulders stacked atop each other, a unique feature that is not seen throughout the river. Photographs by O. Lucanus.

Fig. 2. Map of the Volta Grande and a 150 km stretch of the middle and lower Xingu River encompassing the entire known habitat range (light blue) of the zebra pleco. The background satellite imagery is from a cloud free mosaic from August 2020 acquired by the Planet Dove constellation. The location of Altamira as the primary city from where this species is exported is shown along with the location of the Belo Monte dam complex, including the reservoirs.

Read the whole paper here https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2351989421001207

Here is an excellent vid by Leabdro de Sousa. I relied on the English sub-titles when I watched some time ago.

Need more references. Read Ingo's Back to Nature Guide to L catfish. Hans has a book out on lL236. https://www.nhbs.com/hypancistrus-sp-l-236-book

Article

It has been over a decade since wild-caught H. zebra could be legally obtained in the aquarium trade from Brazil, however legitimate large-scale production of this species is now occurring in Asia (Pedersen 2016). Hypancistrus zebra are starting to enter the market from suppliers, most notably those located in West Java (Maju Aquarium; www.majuaquarium.com) and Bellenz Aquarium in Indonesia (www.bellenz.com), who rear
their fish in high-tech specialised facilities (Figure 3).

from https://ueaeprints.uea.ac.uk/id/eprint/70097/1/Accepted_Manuscript.pdf

In March of 2020 I worked with a partner in the trade to import 318 zebras from Bellenz Aquarium. 268 sized at 1.5 inches and 50 were sized at about 2 inches. 25 of those went into my tanks, the rest were sold.

I fell in love with zebras when I saw my first picture of one in the Baensch Aquarium Atlas in 2001. It took me several years to gain enough experience in the hobby before I got my first wild pair from another hobbyist. I bought a proven breeding colony of 13 wild fish from a hobbyoist who had to self them,. They came with fry. Over the years I have collected as much info as I can on them and tried to speak or correspond with the people who have actually been to the Big Bend and are experts on more than just zebras. I have a rock taken from the Big Bend and given to me as gift by the owner of Planetcatfish.com who persoanlly removed it from the river. It is currently in my breeding tank of wild L173 which were originally the private collection of an importer.

I have also kept discus and done some researching on them. But they were a passing fancy over 15 years ago.

These were all born in my zebra tank.

Finally, there is a species of discus found only in the Rio Xingu. Here is a really good article with great pics and vids. https://cefishessentials.com/blog/rio-xingu-golden-discus/

 

[kiko]

and that's the reason why the ban was imposed...
everyone wanting to save the l46's into tanks of people that pay well for them
the video up there actually talks about how people are making zebras extinct by over capture even nowadays with bans and protected areas
as for temps...not gonna debate something I felt on my own skin...
I suggest you grab someone that speaks Portuguese and go there yourself in June/July and take a swim you will then see what I'm talking about.
and for studies done by Leandro Sousa....what studies? there's no reintroduction program...he couldn't even care for zebras.
and he's been maintaining those aquariums provided by different companies (with financial interest in the area) for the preservation of zebras
but the question remains...where are all the bred zebras going to? as they couldn't even afford water pumps and now they can afford whole new tanks...metal frames...construction etc...on his facebook
But I did ask him that on facebook as now i'm interested in this conservation program or if it is another fraudulent program like so many in Brasil

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Lets make this simple and easy. The paper I posted above has several authors. Consider de Sousa whom, you insult. How many species are name after you?

Distribution.Hassar gabiru occurs in the middle to upper Xingu river basin (Fig. 6), and is apparently endemic to the Xingu basin above the rapids of Volta Grande, near Altamira.

Ecology. Like its congeners, Hassar gabiru was collected usually in swift water over sand beaches at night. Camargo (2009) considered that specimens of Hassar orestis (=Hassar gabiru) collected at the Volta Grande rapids have preference for benthic invertebrates and detritus.

Etymology. Named in honor of Leandro Melo de Sousa, known to his friends as "Gabiru", for his many contributions to the understanding of the Doradidae, including his MSc and PhD dissertations (Sousa & Rapp Py-Daniel, 2005; Sousa, 2010). Leandro also helped to collect part of the type series of the new species. Treated as a noun in apposition.

or

Merodoras nheco, new genus and species from Rio Paraguay basin, Brazil
(Siluriformes, Doradidae), and nomination of the new subfamily Astrodoradinae

HORÁCIO HIGUCHI1, JOSÉ L. O. BIRINDELLI2, LEANDRO M. SOUSA2 & HERALDO A. BRITSKI2
1Museu Paraense Emílio Goeldi, Av. Magalhães Barata, 376, CEP 66040-170, Belém, Pará, Brazil.
2Museu de Zoologia da Universidade de São Paulo, Caixa Postal 42494, CEP 04218-970, São Paulo, São Paulo, Brazil.
E-mails: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]

And then two of the other scientists on the paper I originally quoted are from Canada. Oliver Lucanus is at McGill here is a list of to some of his papers
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Oliver-Lucanus

J. PabloArroyo-Mora is connected to the Flight Research Laboratory, National Research Council of Canada, Ottawa K1V 2B1, ON, Canada

I am perfectly happy to admit I am wrong if you are a degreed expert or are at least actively working in the field and have published material. I would love to read your papers and to learn what described fish are named after you in some way. Please, show me up by showing members here why you are as qualified to opine as the folks I have quoted and whose experience and qualifications are very easy to confirm.
https/scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,33&as_vis=1&q=Leandro+Melo+de+Sousa&btnG=

This may be ab easier place for folks to learn about de Sousa. Got to Planetcatfish and do a search for De Sousa.

 

[kiko]

couldn't care about any of the others as they don't reside in Brasil.
As for Leandro...on the very video you posted he said so himself that the money came from the dam or companies related to it
and that the university didn't even have money to buy water pumps
somewhere in there also that they couldn't care for plecos and had outside breeders..by coicidence the very same where you acquired yours to teach them.
5 years later they got money for construction....fancy racks new tanks a whole rebuild...
conservation in the wild by having a university program to breed them for sale
they're saving them in the wild just as much as me or you
how about a reintroduction program for the bred specimens? or an introduction to other areas outside the scope of the damn like the uatumã river?
if you go on their facebook the only thing you can find about what they do with the fish would be this:

this agreement can be found here: https://www.icmbio.gov.br/cepta/destaques/84-cepta-azab.html
and basically states that the "group" of companies agree to help each other with technical stuff...how to take care blablabla....
at the end the fish are sold for view to: Aquário de São Paulo, Aquário de Ubatuba e Museu Dante Alighieri and then some...
conservation?
I see this as npo's that ask people for donations for the poor people in Africa and then take 25% administrative charges, pass along to another company that will take another 25%
money gets sent to Africa and the receiving company will take another 25% and then finally the money will be given locally to volunteers at red cross unicef etc...
As for this argument of heaters...your Leandro Sousa hasn't done a single study on environmental changes or anything throughout the year (although he takes measurements of different things when he goes by)
So would I trust a biologist that breeds for profit in name of his university to expand his academic program or government studies done over a large period of time?
Again...it all comes to facts...and the whole let's save the indians/fish/birds/monkeys talk in Brasil has always been about $$
PS: did you know the "Arara Azul" which went extinct in the wild was actually *saved* by breeders?...but they got millions in these "conservation" programs....
or how they saved so many indigenous tribes by forcing them out...killing them...promising them housing only to put them in another region in shacks/tents.
Hell they're printing monkeys on 20 dollar bills all in the name of conservation hahahaha xD
I honestly hope you do some more reading specially about corruption in Brasil and stop believing people that have something to gain from it.
Because they will..BUT all in the name of conservation!!