White Spots On Serpae Tetras

[wet44]

My Serpae (or red minor tetras) seem to have white spots on them but each only seems to have one on their mouth or near there. Could someone identify if it is a disease or if it needs to be treated at all? 

Tank size: 55 gallons
pH: 7.0
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0
tank temp: 74 Degrees Farenheit

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior): Have one large white spot on or near their mouth. Some have ragged fins or white fins.They don't display anything wrong besides how they look. They seem to school together most of the time and their color is the same as it has been I believe. They've had these spots for over a month and they haven't spread it to my neon tetras or my corydoras. 

Volume and Frequency of water changes: 20% every week.

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: Seachem prime used for water treating. 

Tank inhabitants: 4 Serpae Tetra (suspect) 5 Neon Tetra 2 Peppered Cory and 1 Albino Cory. 

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): 1 Serpae tetra was added to the original 3.

Exposure to chemicals: Seachem prime

Digital photo :  
 
If those pictures aren't good enough, I can try to get a better one. Thanks for the help in advance!

 

[Byron]

I am not sure there is any problem respecting the mouth area, it is difficult to see in the photos but I wouldn't jump to conclusions yet.  So I'll move on to the fin issue.
 
This is normal for this species, as it is a decided fin nipper.  Maintaining the species in larger groups, no less than 8 but preferably more than this, can reduce this within the group, and especially prevent it from spreading to other species which is very likely going to occur here.  You have enough space, so if you like this species and intend to keep it, I would get 10-12 in total, and soon.  The natural interaction of individuals will or may quickly establish once they are settled.
 
Just keep in mind that with this species you do not want any sedate or long-fin fish (cichlids, gourami, etc).
 
You also need to up the corys, at least 5-6 in total, but preferably more especially as you have the space.  Not for nipping reasons, but to keep the fish "happy" as corys are very social fish and the more there are the better.
 
Byron.

 

[wet44]

I was definitely planning on upping the numbers of the cories. I haven't seen these guys nip in a while and was only planning on 4. If it is that dire then I'll make plans to get 8+ of them. Could the mouth area problem be due to nipping as well? Thanks a bunch!

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Looks like 'cottonmouth' to me.


But, just to confirm because its a little tough to see in the pictures: does it look like small white grains of sand, or larger blotchy cottony like mass?


The likelihood is cottonmouth (aka "columnaris").

It is BACTERIAL, not fungal, even though it appears to look like a fungus.

This is a 'GRAM NEGATIVE' bacteria, which means that you would need an antibiotic that deals specifically with GRAM NEGATIVE bacteria... many do not. Maracyn (ethromyacin) deals with gram POSITIVE bacteria, and will be essentially worthless. On the other hand, MARACYN TWO deals with gram NEGATIVE bacteria.

The bad news is that the biological filter in your tank is ALSO gram negative, which means you will be dealing with a cycling restart to deal with this illness.
Looks like 'cottonmouth' to me.


But, just to confirm because its a little tough to see in the pictures: does it look like small white grains of sand, or larger blotchy cottony like mass?


The likelihood is cottonmouth (aka "columnaris").

It is BACTERIAL, not fungal, even though it appears to look like a fungus.

This is a 'GRAM NEGATIVE' bacteria, which means that you would need an antibiotic that deals specifically with GRAM NEGATIVE bacteria... many do not. Maracyn (ethromyacin) deals with gram POSITIVE bacteria, and will be essentially worthless. On the other hand, MARACYN TWO deals with gram NEGATIVE bacteria.

The bad news is that the biological filter in your tank is ALSO gram negative, which means you will be dealing with a cycling restart to deal with this illness.

 

[wet44]

It doesn't look grainy, but it also doesn't protrude like cotton would. I would say it looks more like cotton even though it doesn't particularly look like cotton. 
 
If it is cottonmouth, would I be best off quarantining all of my Serpaes or just treating the whole tank because my other fish have been exposed for so long?  Also, would the water be considered "infected" or just the fish and it can spread to other fish? I would like to keep one of my filters full of good bacteria, so I don't have to re-cycle. 
 
Thanks for your input, I hope it's not cottonmouth but I'm glad I caught it when it doesn't appear to be too bad if it is cottonmouth.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Well, ultimately the lesions end up 'sunken' into the body.


I'm not familiar enough with columnaris to give a 100% diagnosis... but the one picture appeared that way to me, but it was tough to see in the picture, and it was based only on the second one.

I'm also not sure about whether or not the whole tank is affected or not. I know that it can spread.


As Byron says, the fin area could be down to fin nipping, and an easy option (well, once you manage to catch the fish) is a salt dip which will promote fin healing, and will also help to treat the columnaris, IF its that.

Here's a good article on fish baths, dips, swabs, etc. http/www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.html

 

[wet44]

Ah, thank you. I'm skeptical of this being columnaris only because it hasn't spread to other fish and hasn't seemed to harm my Serpaes. It seems a salt bath couldn't do any harm, if I perform it right. Should I start doing bigger/more often water changes as well? I don't want to resort to medication if it isn't needed.

 

[Byron]

I was definitely planning on upping the numbers of the cories. I haven't seen these guys nip in a while and was only planning on 4. If it is that dire then I'll make plans to get 8+ of them. Could the mouth area problem be due to nipping as well? Thanks a bunch!

 
No, the mouth is not likely the same thing.  I am no disease expert by any means, so I am not going to say anything contrary to what JD has posted.  Except, before you start using any medications, make very sure of what you are treating, and it is the best treatment.  I learned the hard way after using medications that didn't solve the disease and killed fish in the process.  I think JD and others would like clearer photos, perhaps a video too?
 
Definitely up the Serpae if you intend keeping this species, but may be wise to clear up any disease issues first.
 
One thing I will say about the fins...I would not myself do any treatment for this.  I would want clearer proof before jumping into treatments.  I am going to attach a photo or two of healthy Serpae, and you will see white edging on the fins.
 
Treating fish causes additional stress, and this can be significant.  And it is on top of the present stress in fighting off disease (if any is present), plus the stress from too few fish...so further stress only weakens the immune system still further.  This is why it is so important to ascertain the problem and then do the safest and best treatment.  This is partially why secondary issues so often arise from initial problems.

 

[Fishmanic]

in my 35 gallon tall hex tank, I have 4 serpaes along with 3 skirt tetras, 10 harlequin rasboras, and a bullnose pleco and have no aggressions issues among them

 

[wet44]

 
The area in question is on the tetra's mouth and upper head area. I'm not the best at taking pictures, so this is probably about the best I can get. I can try to take a video if that's needed.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I agree with Byron that you don't want to add medications unless you are certain of the disease you are treating.
 
 
Large, frequent water changes are (almost) always a great starting point when dealing with a disease.  Clean water allows the fish to deal with the disease on their own, and their immune systems are actually quite good.  They can fight off minor issues with just clean water to do it with (and limited stress).  
 
The bath idea is only for a general treatment when you are unsure of the exact malady.  Topical treatments like that can be very effective against a range of things, parasites, fungus and bacterial infections.  Salt is funny that way.

 

[wet44]

Alright. Does doing 25% water changes daily for a couple weeks sound good? If I don't see a change then maybe I should try some salt baths? Also, should I use seachem prime on all the water changes or a less "complex" water treater?
 
Thanks again, guys. It's been a great help

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I'd say that 25% daily until you either see improvement or it worsens would be a good place to start.   I'd continue with Prime.  I don't see the downside to using it.

BTW, the reason I brought up columnaris is because of your 'tag' of this thread with the word 'FUNGUS'.  Columnaris is often misidentified as a fungus.  It is tough to see definitively in the pictures provided what the discoloration is.  

 

[wet44]

Ah. Yeah, I just thought it would be a fungus, I haven't had to deal with any diseases yet so I'm not knowledgeable, as you probably can tell. I'll delete that tag so as to not misinform anyone. 
 
Which I now realize I have no clue how to do, haha.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I can't do it either.  Its ok.  The reason that I pointed that out is that your visualization of the problem is probably better than what we can see in the pictures at this point.  It's just part of the puzzle.  Diagnosing fish over the internet is extremely difficult, heck, diagnosing fish in person is extremely difficult!    Most of us aren't trained ichthyologists, and even if we were, we aren't pathologists or veterinarians either... so its a challenge, each and every time.