When Breeding Bettas, What Tail Type Combos Make What?

[Starfishpower]

in reading the betta breeding guide we have here it starts off by saying dont breed VTs cause they are so common, and i agree with this. but what if i crossed my VT male with a female crowntail or halfmoon? that wouldnt make VTs now then would it.... or would it? iv got a new VT male who has hardly gone a day now since i got him without having at least one bubble nest, sometimes two. he's white with splotches of purple and sections of his tail are see through as well as kinda sparkly. its kinda like if a "my little pony" vomited up glittery rainbows and sunshine only later to be hit by lightning and quickened into a life form which happened to be a betta splenden.... it would look like mine betta how bout that? so ya, back to my original question, id like to breed this guy but only if i know the fry will be wanted, so would they take on a new tail type? it doesnt even have to be a standard recognized tail type so long as its exotic/rare and looks great. ill post a picture of him this weekend when i do a water change, iv got indian almond leaf extract in there right now and the coloration doesnt allow for viewing of true colors

 

[wendywc]

From what I heard, VT is dominant and is hard to breed out of the line.

 

[ibbledibble]

something that must be considered is that without knowing the genetic history or the fish in question, it could have come from mixed genetics.

i had an unexpected spawning, when my doubletail female, turned out to be a DTPK male who spawned with a CT female in my sorority tank

none of the fry are DT and none are Crowntail (although some of them have a slight comb)

there are several VT's in the fry

however, those VT's are highly likely to be genotypes for DT, CT, PK so breeding them back together could result in very interesting F2 fry

your VT could be hiding all sorts of genetics, you won't know until you try.
but be warned, its a lot of work, can be very frustrating at times, and can work out quite expensive. don't just do it on a whim,
your boy will continue to build his bubblenests happily even if he never gets a girlfriend. so be very sure you want to do it before you try. (not meaning to sound condescending)

 

[LauraFrog]

In my opinion, there is no need to pay the slightest attention to everybody saying 'don't breed veiltails because they're common'. Veiltails are just as intelligent and friendly as other bettas and make great pets. They aren't show fish but nobody I know wants to show bettas anyway. The main considerations are the homes for the babies. You can end up with two or three hundred fry and the main reason not to breed veiltails is that it's not easy to rehome two or three hundred fry when everybody can get one the same. The other important thing to consider is the quality of the original fish. I'm talking mainly about vigour and size and hardiness. You don't want to breed bettas that are inbred and abused by generations of the factory mentality - breed more fish fast, make more money, buy more fish, breed more fish, make more money, buy more tanks, buy more fish, breed more fish, make more money...

If (when) I start breeding bettas I plan on breeding crowntails because they're popular in my area. But what's really popular is spotted or patched bettas - so if I find a marbled or dalmatian veiltail and manage to get it breeding true, those fish will be easier to home than blue/red crowntails which are relatively common. It's not what fish fanciers say is attractive that locals necessarily want. I know most of the people in my area would be happier with a bright red or blue veiltail than a subtle copper coloured halfmoon. Not dissing coppers - my fave betta colour! - but there's the point I'm trying to make.

If you're confident that you will be able to get rid of all the fry - either finding them good homes, not with some loser who'll keep them in a cup, or as feeders - then if your veiltail male is a healthy and vigorous fish you have nothing to lose. Veil is a very dominant trait, but as was said, they are often a mixup and will breed throwbacks. You are very likely to get at least some veiltail fry from either of these crosses. In fact you'll get a veritable mixup. Good luck!

 

[Starfishpower]

wow, thank you all, thats a lot of good info. i think i will try to breed them later this year - give myself some time to save up money and jars i do have a few last questions though.

~ Can i breed the f1 generation with itself (inbreeding) or should i buy completely new bettas to interbreed and form f2? i need to know because this will determine how many f1 i keep and how many i give away, and i need to plan financially ahead of time to do one or the other.

~ What should the timing look like between f1 and f2? in other words, lets say my VT breeds this november, how long until the f1 generation is ready to be breed? and since some bettas grow faster than others id assume they mature faster too so whats the longest and shortest time span to be expecting so i can better plan my calendar.

~ What about further down the line. What if i decide i like this and want to keep breeding my bettas and get to like f9 or something. if immediate inbreeding is not bad is it bad further down the line? is there a point at which i must bring in new bettas to interbreed mine with?

 

[ibbledibble]

wow, thank you all, thats a lot of good info. i think i will try to breed them later this year - give myself some time to save up money and jars i do have a few last questions though.

~ Can i breed the f1 generation with itself (inbreeding) or should i buy completely new bettas to interbreed and form f2? i need to know because this will determine how many f1 i keep and how many i give away, and i need to plan financially ahead of time to do one or the other.

if you breed the fry to new bought in bettas, the resulting fry will not be F2 they will simply be F1 fry from the new pairing, F2, F3 etc are only achieved by breeding the fish back to family members (mother, father, or sibling)

~ What should the timing look like between f1 and f2? in other words, lets say my VT breeds this november, how long until the f1 generation is ready to be breed? and since some bettas grow faster than others id assume they mature faster too so whats the longest and shortest time span to be expecting so i can better plan my calendar.

technically you can start breeding the fry at approx 3 months old. obviously you need to use your discretion based on the relative size of the fish (probably not son to mother, as she might be too big for him to wrap etc) , but it is supposed to be better to breed them young as they tend to learn what they are doing better, and it also allows time for them to be bred back to offspring later. bear in mind that bettas tend to be too old for breeding by about 1 year, so time is fairly limited

~ What about further down the line. What if i decide i like this and want to keep breeding my bettas and get to like f9 or something. if immediate inbreeding is not bad is it bad further down the line? is there a point at which i must bring in new bettas to interbreed mine with?

as i understand it, it is frowned upon to go any further than F3, at this stage you would bring fresh fish in with characteristics you wish to develop. if you bought 2 new unrelated fish in, and spawned them to 2 of your F3 fry, you could possibly spawn the resulting F1-F3 fry from the separate pairings back together again, due to the new blood reducing the chance of genetic defects. but i'm not totally sure on that. i'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along soon

 

[ezrock]

F1 with itself is fine if you have two fish that will get you closer to your goal!

The timing between generations is basically once the fish are big enough to rate them and to breed. I just bred an F3 today, and the parents are about 3cm long. I liked the parents and the mom was showing signs of being ready, so I tried it and it worked perfectly. Many people recommend breeding younger fish that are just reaching adulthood so you will have higher chances of being successful (older fish are harder to spawn)

Overall, you should probably cross the line into an external source to keep the babies diverse genetically. If you go long enough without crossing out, you will likely have trouble getting successful spawns! I had this happen to me with guppies and it's a pain to lose years of work due to that!

-Ian

wow, thank you all, thats a lot of good info. i think i will try to breed them later this year - give myself some time to save up money and jars i do have a few last questions though.

~ Can i breed the f1 generation with itself (inbreeding) or should i buy completely new bettas to interbreed and form f2? i need to know because this will determine how many f1 i keep and how many i give away, and i need to plan financially ahead of time to do one or the other.

~ What should the timing look like between f1 and f2? in other words, lets say my VT breeds this november, how long until the f1 generation is ready to be breed? and since some bettas grow faster than others id assume they mature faster too so whats the longest and shortest time span to be expecting so i can better plan my calendar.

~ What about further down the line. What if i decide i like this and want to keep breeding my bettas and get to like f9 or something. if immediate inbreeding is not bad is it bad further down the line? is there a point at which i must bring in new bettas to interbreed mine with?

 

[Aussie_Dog]

I have to respond to this just to ask a question I myself have been wondering: what would a crowntail (male) and a doubletail (female) produce? I have no intention of breeding, but I found myself with that question and I really wonder what would happen.

 

[ezrock]

Hi Aussie_dog.

That combo (CT x DT) would likely produce mostly single tail combtails. They'd probably have a lot of them as SDs and HMs thanks to the DT influence. The crowntail doesn't really penetrate too well in the first generation so the fringes would be various degrees of comb appearance. Some would have bigger spikes than others, but some would likely just look like regular ST. Depending on the genetics of both parents, you could possibly get some DTs if the CT had DTs recently in the lineage.

However, if you bred the two offspring with the widest dorsal and longest fringes, then you have a much better chance at getting doubletail crowntails since both traits seem to have recessive characteristics!

Hope that helps