What's the craic from Ireland

[WhistlingBadger]

One thing I find in this hobby, and one of the things that makes it fascinating, is that there are few absolutes. I hesitate to tell beginners this, but sometimes the accepted wisdom isn't the only way.

I think bettas are a lot like people: Different critters have different personalities. Some are more aggressive than others, and some of them get grouchier as they get older. (Same thing seems to be happening to me!) My daughter has a male in a 7g with some microrasboras and amano shrimp, and he ignores everything and everyone except her (because he knows where his chow comes from).

Ottos are tough little guys once they settle in, so as long as it isn't being terrorized, he's probably fine.

 

[Eenyo1]

Hi
I'm from Ireland just starting my first tank a 30l Nano with a betta and unknown algae eater pleco. Have learned much from lurking around the forum already so thank you. I'm looking forward to learning more and giving my fish the best environment possible.

Hi fellow Irishman. Welcome.
Fairly new to the forum myself, and learning something new every day. pleasant and helpful members.
Hope the lockdown and shop closures does not curtail your new hobby.

 

[Eirequarium]

Hi fellow Irishman. Welcome.
Fairly new to the forum myself, and learning something new every day. pleasant and helpful members.
Hope the lockdown and shop closures does not curtail your new hobby.

Hey nice to know I'm not the only one here. Luckily I live really close to one of the bigger aquarium shops here which has remained open all along. Thanks for the warm welcome.

 

[PheonixKingZ]

I disagree that bettas aren't community fish. It depends on the individual. Every single one of mine has been in a community and they do just fine. If he isn't bothering your other fish and doesn't seem bothered by its presence, then your all good. Just keep an eye on them.

This is a widely debatable subject...

We do not recommend to newbies at the hobby, to keep bettas in a community tank. Eeven if the bettas temperament is "ok".

Even if the bettas temperament is ok... there can still be problems. Some people think it would be cool to throw in some neon tetras with a betta, not a good idea. Also, if you add other known fin nippers in with a betta, the betta will have a terrible life. Now I'm not saying that it can't work out, it just usually doesn't.

For example, my old betta. I used to be able to keep him with cherry shrimp and snails. He had no issue with either of them. One day, I put in a rescues tetra in with him. He was really cool about it and didn't attack the new fish. I thought everything was cool... until feeding time came around... My betta was trying to get food but the tetra kept chasing him away and nipping at his fins. I eventually had to remove the tetra and nurse my betta back to health. Don't you see? Even if it is working out then, it probably wont work out in the long run.

I know @Byron has the same ideas as me.

 

[Bub]

We do not recommend to newbies at the hobby, to keep bettas in a community tank. Eeven if the bettas temperament is "ok".

Even if the bettas temperament is ok... there can still be problems. Some people think it would be cool to throw in some neon tetras with a betta, not a good idea. Also, if you add other known fin nippers in with a betta, the betta will have a terrible life. Now I'm not saying that it can't work out, it just usually doesn't.

I disagree. My first fish was a betta. In a community tank. With neons. With the appropriate research, and the right people advising them, it can be done easily enough. Just look at any forum other than this one, it works out fine quite often when the right people do the advising. The right betta is all it needs. And obviously the right fish as well, recommending fin nippers to be kept with bettas is the last thing anyone should do. Good thing a small catfish such as this will have small chance of doing that Though the tank size is smaller than I'd recommend for one, which would be the issue here for me.

Nowadays I wouldn't recommend to keep a betta with neons simply due to their temperature preferences. But aside from that mine did just fine.

For example, my old betta. I used to be able to keep him with cherry shrimp and snails. He had no issue with either of them. One day, I put in a rescues tetra in with him. He was really cool about it and didn't attack the new fish. I thought everything was cool... until feeding time came around... My betta was trying to get food but the tetra kept chasing him away and nipping at his fins. I eventually had to remove the tetra and nurse my betta back to health. Don't you see? Even if it is working out then, it probably wont work out in the long run.

That was your mistake. A single tetra will be more likely to nip at another fish. I had a lone zebra danio that went nuts nipping fins too. After giving him an appropriate group of danios, he behaved himself. And yes, it certainly can work out in the long run. As I said, every betta I've had has lived in a community tank. Set up appropriately. With fish that aren't nippy, and kept in appropriate numbers according to their species.

Some would argue you shouldn't keep your betta with shrimp either. I keep them with them too. As did you it seems.

 

[Byron]

I've been pulled into this thread, so allow me to point out some serious misconceptions.

Male Bettas are not community fish. The knowledgeable biologists and ichthyologists are the ones to listen to, not store staff. This species has been selectively bred to bring out the inherent aggression.

When dealing with any species--provided the aquarist is truly wanting what is best for the fish--one first needs to understand the species, and then assume the individual fish will be "normal" and provide accordingly. Anything else is not kind to the fish, because it cannot help how it thinks and behaves, and the chances of getting an abnormal individual fish does not justify risking the fish, either the Betta or the other fish in the tank.

It is true that individual fish may have somewhat different or contrary behaviours. This is known all across the animal world, including humans. But there are basic general inherent requirements and behaviours, and they must be respected. At least by any hobbyist who cares about the fish. We are inviting the fish to spend the rest of its life in what we provide it, and it is less than humane to ignore the science in the hopes we can experiment to suit our needs and not those of the fish.

There is more to this than just what we can observe. Long before any physical interaction may occur, the fish are still being themselves and communicating this to each other. Pheromones and allomones are released by all fish and read by other fish, and aggressive allomones from a Betta can stress out the other species just as severely as if the Betta takes a lunge at it.

This also applies in the abnormal behaviours; this can be brought on by stress from an inappropriate environment. Fish that are forced into a situation they do not "expect" will react, often (the majority of the time it would seem) through increased aggression, but sometimes the opposite. When the fish does not behave "normal" there is often a reason. Ignoring it is not good husbandry.

 

[Bub]

Again, I disagree. Other than that people shouldn't take their advise from store staff. There is more than one way to go about the hobby, to state that one way is led through misconceptions, advice from stores and an apparent lack of care for the animals involved is simply wrong. I'd argue its a misconception that bettas can't be kept in community tanks, and that they will do worse than those individuals kept alone. I can guarantee my bettas, and the bettas I've seen from knowledgeable members elsewhere, and doing fantastic, and better than many of the bettas I've seen kept alone. These bettas were bred to increase their aggression in order to fight one another. Bettas are territorial to one another. Which is one of the reasons I don't particularly like sororities. They often end in dropsy and disease. This however, does not mean they will go out of their way to kill or harm any other fish in the tank in all cases. Certain fish will, no doubt. But not in all cases. Through being active on other forums, it is quite clear that quite a few of these fish can do quite well in community tanks, as my fish aren't the only ones that thrive in communities.

It all comes down to knowing your own fish. You can tell when a betta will be overly aggressive, when they will be passive and when they could go either way. I look at the fish I buy at the store to gauge how they act and buy them accordingly. So far I have had success with all bettas I have had, even so far as to be able to keep shrimp with certain individuals.

Now that we are on to good husbandry, I doubt my 5 year old betta had many problems in my care. For those years, he has lived in a community. As have the others. He's already lived longer than the bettas of certain members I've seen here. That speaks volumes for me.

Anyway, its a shame to hijack the OPs thread with such talk. Especially as I will never change your mind, nor will you change mine. If he has problems with his fish, I'm sure he will act accordingly. If not, then I wish him the best with his fish.

 

[Byron]

The point is that he will have fewer problems if he accepts the fish's inherent nature and provides accordingly. That's all.

And I do not agree with experimenting to suit the aquarists' "wants" so you and I clearly approach the care of fish differently. I don't need to jump off a cliff to see if I might survive, I have a pretty good idea I usually won't--not from experience but from understanding the science behind it.

 

[Bub]

And I do not agree with experimenting to suit the aquarists' "wants" so you and I clearly approach the care of fish differently.

Good. That should be a given. I've never experimented with my fish. I would always take the advise from people on forums that had actual experience with these things. This is why I came to you for advise on Bolivians. My fish are housed according to countless hours of research, preparation and observation. You can tell me that's wrong if you would like to, my 5 year old betta would disagree.... For me, a larger tank with some other fish in there is far preferable to many of the tiny tanks people recommend for these fish.

But I digress. Each forum has their way of doing things and I respect that.

 

[Eirequarium]

I will take all advice on board and consider what to do next.

 

[Retired Viking]

I will take all advice on board and consider what to do next.

This subject is like opening a can of worms, another one to avoid is % of water changes and how often. What part of Ireland do you live in. My mother's side came from southern Ireland (McCarthy)

 

[Eirequarium]

I'm from Dublin the South is nice so is the West. Dublin is not too bad but just like other modern cities really. Thanks for the heads up on the water changes will remember that

 

[Retired Viking]

Always wanted to visit Ireland. Back in the 70s I hiked around Europe and was stationed in Germany (US Army) I am related to George M Cohan an Irish/American singer from back in the 30s-40s

 

[PheonixKingZ]

Male Bettas are not community fish. The knowledgeable biologists and ichthyologists are the ones to listen to, not store staff. This species has been selectively bred to bring out the inherent aggression.

I agree 100%. This is the bottom line for this "issue". As @Byron said, its better to give your fish what they need and not what you want.

 

[PheonixKingZ]

This subject is like opening a can of worms, another one to avoid is % of water changes and how often. What part of Ireland do you live in. My mother's side came from southern Ireland (McCarthy)

This is a can of worms that needs to be opened my friend.