What's the best way to go

[Zombies]

For the fish that go from Brackish gradually to Marine (in my case Green Spotted Puffers) whats the best way to make it marine other then raising the SG. Is there new equiptment to buy, do you have to add live rock? When would it be added?

Thanks, just trying to think ahead.

 

[CFC]

Once the SG is raised above 1.010 it is recomended to add a protein skimmer to the tank but you cant add live rock until the SG is 1.022 (full seawater). Other than that the equipment stays the same as in freshwater.

 

[RamJet]

Once the SG is raised above 1.010 it is recomended to add a protein skimmer to the tank but you cant add live rock until the SG is 1.022 (full seawater). Other than that the equipment stays the same as in freshwater.

I dont mean to set on toes here, but you can add live rock once you hit 1.016. Many LFS keep the salinity down in there marine tanks to ward off parasites. I used to keep my fish, live rock tanks at 1.018 for this reason. It is when you want to start adding corals that you need to up your salinity between 1.023 to 1.025. You may want to get reef bones (dead live rock) to start off, it wont matter what your salinity is at, and it cost less. Add live rock when you get your salt content up to were you want it to be. I do also want to add that if your LFS does keep the salt content at normal levels and you are wanting to add marine fish in your tank with low content. You will need to do a slow drip for many hours before adding them to your tank. Hope that helps.

 

[CFC]

Surely many of the imobile inverts that dwell in the live rock would perish in a SG lower than 1.022 and then cause a massive nitrogen pollution surge as they decompose? I know my LFS keeps their live rock in a tank in the botttom tank of a large sysytem which also houses their corals and inverts and so is presumably full sea water.

 

[andywg]

Just a thought, on the live rock issue, asking in the Reef section, or PMing Navarre and Great Lakes should get a fairly good answer for this one.

Though I do seem to remember reading on a site somewhere that SG should be over 1.020 before Live rock is added, though I would never proclaim to know enough on this to challenge anyone else

 

[Zombies]

Once the SG is raised above 1.010 it is recomended to add a protein skimmer to the tank but you cant add live rock until the SG is 1.022 (full seawater). Other than that the equipment stays the same as in freshwater.

I'm suprised I wouldn't need anymore equiptment other then the protein skimmer, what about a sump?

 

[CFC]

You can add a sump to any system if that is the way to choose to filter your tank but it is not essential, a normal internal, HOB or external canister filter is fine for average sized brackish systems.

 

[Ed4567]

I would have thought that while live rock would act as a surface for nitrifying bacteria, by keeping it in water at 1.016 specific gravity a large proportion of the invertebrates that come with it would certainly not thrive, and would probably die.

This would result in a loss of the biodiversity that many of us use live rock to introduce, and the movement of water throughout the rock would be comprimised(1) preventing optimum proccessing of wastes. IMO you would effectivly end up with rock with nothing more than the standard bacteria, which could be achieved far more cheaply using ReefBones or similar.

Just my opinion.
Ed

Ref 1: Live rock as a biological filter- Ronald Shimek
http/reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rs/feature/index.htm
About 2/3 of the way down:

The only motive force sufficient to move enough water through the rock, so that it may act as an efficient denitrating site, is the force generated by the animals, mostly the worms, living in their burrows. These worms move back and forth in their burrows and in doing so they move the water in the burrows in a pulsating fashion. Many of the burrows and pores are interconnected, either intentionally or by happenstance, and these interconnections result in water movement into and out of the rock. Additionally, many of the worms and other animals in the rock pump water over themselves in their burrows. They do this to facilitate gas exchange over their gills, but the net result is a significant, constant, and moderate current through the rock. Such a current, coupled with oxygen utilization of animals in the rock, could result in the interior of the rock becoming the efficient denitrification site that it has been thought to be.

 

[Zombies]

Thanks CFC for clearing that up. It won't be for a long while that I'll be raising the salinity to marine levels. I was thinking I'd have to budget big bucks for it and buy a bunch of new equitment.

 

[RamJet]

Surely many of the imobile inverts that dwell in the live rock would perish in a SG lower than 1.022 and then cause a massive nitrogen pollution surge as they decompose?

Wait a min. Are we talking about going to a reef or just a FOLR tank? If we are talking about FOLR, then it does not matter. (you would only be useing rock as a filter) But I assure you that snails and hermitts, ect... will servive in 1.016 to 1.018. I know, I have done it. Feathers and others will also grow. Now if your trying to go reef, you will need higher salinity for corals. But I am going to tell you not to expect to recieve live corals on your live rock. They just dont make it through damp shipping. Not to mention, hitch hikers are not normally welcome. So really, you can add it at a lower salinity then 1.022. Not that you have too, I am just saying that it can be done and your not going to loose anything. I would like to also add that I am not suggesting that one would keep the salintity at that level, but to continue the gradual increace of salt content. I am saying that it can be added before you get to natural sea water levels with out a problem.
Just a little something to think about : What happens in a tide pool when it rains?

 

[Ed4567]

CFC @ Jan 17 2005, 06:46 AM)
Surely many of the imobile inverts that dwell in the live rock would perish in a SG lower than 1.022 and then cause a massive nitrogen pollution surge as they decompose?


Wait a min. Are we talking about going to a reef or just a FOLR tank? If we are talking about FOLR, then it does not matter.

hitch hikers are not normally welcome.

Umm maybe you should read the article I linked to. Live rock is more effective than normal dry rock (eg. reefbones) for filtration and particularly denitrification, because of the multitude of small worms and other invertebrates residing within it. When you place this rock into water of a vastly different salinity to where these invertebrates are evolved to live, you inevitable decrease the population dramatically.

This does not mean the rock cannot act as a surface for bacteria,but it does not have the advantages of live rock, and any old rock can perform this function (provided it has a suitable structure) so you have just paid £9 per Kg when reef bones would surfice.

re: tidepool reference, the live rock isnt taken from a tidepool is it? Sure you can put it into tidepool like conditions but you will lose the many beneficial animals that you are looking to utalise for filtration.

 

[Ed4567]

Oh and just for referance natural saltwater typically has a specific gravity of 1.025 to 1.026

 

[RamJet]

Oh and just for referance natural saltwater typically has a specific gravity of 1.025 to 1.026

Ok, what are you smoking. Natural sea water drifts from 1.022 to 1.025. Now as far as this huge die off goes, what makes you think that they die off in the first place. They may not do as well as in higher salinity, but dont just keel over and call it quits. Many rivers and streams dump into the oceans. In these areas you will still find bristle worms, snails, pods, ect... doing quite well. We are not talking about some massive difference in salt content. And to answer the question about tide pools, no we dont take live rock from them, but yes there is live rock in them provided they are perminate tide pools and dont dry up. Man, I am glad you are here, this is getting to be one of the best debates I have been in on this forum! I wish more were like you. Oh, I might have missed it, but were in the link does it talk about salt content related to die off.

 

[RamJet]

This from Navarre
"Well i use Natural Sea water and where i get mine from its 1.025. Salt water varies in salinity all over the world but they are right to say thats its abot 1.025.

As for the brakishwater... i would say that 1.018 would be fine. I would be worried at lower for any lenthy period of time in case of die off. I have never tried keeping liverock in a brackish water setup so i really am no expert here. I have seen marine fish kept in 1.018 for a fairly long period of time so i would say thats its possible at this level. "

So as I was saying for the trasition you dont have to get it up to natural sea water.
Now Navarre is in the UK, and if you look at SG you will find higher contents in this part of the world. Depending on where you are it will drift, now it is important to remember that we get fish, corals, inverts, liverock, ect... from all parts of the world and just because SG = X in my area does not mean that it is right in all parts of the world. SG changes depending on rivers and rain fall in a given area, drought is also a factor that can cause this drift. Now take a look at what areas most corals, ect.. are coming from and you will find that in these pockets you will not always have an SG on the high side of the sepecturm.

 

[Ed4567]

Nothing wrong with a bit of a debate

I agree with you that it is perfectly acceptable to gradually increase the salinity to natural sea level while fish are in the tank, although it is probably not beneficial to reef fish to be maintanined at consistantly low levels over periods of time (http/rshimek.com/reef/tempsal.htm). But I do not think that it is wise to add live rock to a tank with a lower than average salinity considering the importance of invertebrates in it functioning as a system. You say yourself that a low salinity is not suitable for corals and have a proven effectivness at killing the 'whitespot' protozoan. You wont kill everything stone dead by keeping it in lower than natural salinity but if it was my tank I would want to preserve everything I could.
Effect of low salinity (look at the bottom of the page) on invertebrates: http/www.invertebratebiology.org/ib1194.htm#A1.11

In response to salinity on natural reefs, sorry I should have made it clear I was refering to low salinity damaging reef inhabitats not brackish water fish. Below is an a report on the patterns of distribution of reef fish, under the main conclusion title it says:

Main conclusions The Amazon freshwater and sediment outflow is a strong barrier to shallow water reef fish and other organisms, and it is probably  responsible for most of the endemism found in Brazilian coastal habitats...

I'm sure if you wish to search around there is plenty more information on how the low salinity environment at the mouth of the Amazon has limited coral reef growth, despite the locations otherwise favourable environment.
http/plaza.ufl.edu/rocha1/Rocha2003.pdf

natural saltwater typically has a specific gravity of

Important word here is typically. Again sorry I should have expanded on this and made it clear that I obviously wasn't refering to every drop of sea water in the world. However I still stand by the opinion that 1.025 is a fair specific gravity to consider full strength sea water considering the opinions I have read from the so called experts on the subject.
http/www.reefs.org/library/article/bingman_toonen.html
Maybe my opinion is biased by keeping a reef aquarium, so my full strength seawater may be higher than that considered full strength with reference to brackish fish with limited habitat range.