What's going on?!

james.ritch

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One of my albino neon tetras and one of my blue rams have died in the last 24 hours. My angelfish is also looking very very sick. He is floating around very lethargic and is near enough being sucked into the filter because he's so lethargic.

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40ppm
Temp 25-26

My last water change was on Thursday where I dosed the water with seachem Prime as a conditioner, easylife liquid carbon and profito. The carbon and fertiliser are new so I'm not sure if it's them.
 

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Do a water change ASAP, something is probably messing with the water, be it the chemicals you added or the parameters themselves. Change at least 50% and see if they all start acting better.
 
Agree with above. Then, let us have more data: tank size, fish species and numbers, how long tank has been running, what frequency and volume are normal water changes.
 
Done a 50% water change. Not too much difference in the angel really. Rest of the fish are still very perky.

Tank is a Juwel Rio 180. I have the internal Juwel filter as well as an external APS 1400EF+ which pumps 1400 litres an hour.

30-40% change every Thursday.

Stocking:
2 angels
6 guppies
3 mollies
4 platys
4 corys
8 rummynose tetra
Now 4 albino black neon tetra
BN Pleco
L333 Pleco

Tank been running about 7 months
 
I do! It's a lot less mixed than it used to be believe it or not. Up until now all fish seem to have been thriving though
 
Thriving is hard to achieve, especially when all your fish ("all") require different Parameters...
If they where thriving you wouldn't have posted this thread.
 
Diagnosing disease/fish problems is not always simple, as so many things can affect fish and produce similar symptoms. I seem to write it in every post lately, but the relationship of fish to their aquatic environment is very much more significant than that of land animals to air; water entering the fish is much different from air entering the lungs, and everything in the water gets inside the fish, dispersed through the bloodstream and into organs--and most all of these substances probably has some effect which will be detrimental and certainly never beneficial (except treatments for specific disease obviously).

From the information you've provided, I will only point out things I see as problems, without meaning to suggest any one is the direct cause of the deaths/behaviour. But cumulatively they can be so.

I would first recommend never adding substances to the tank water when you have done a partial water change, other than conditioner of course. These substances sometimes interact in ways we cannot expect. Conditioner is necessary if chlorine and/or chloramine is present in the source water as it is for most of us. Which conditioner you use should always be based on what you need to deal with the water, nothing more. For example, Prime detoxifies ammonia, nitrite and nitrate; unless any one or more of these is present in the source water, this is not a conditioner to be using. Seachem themselves cannot explain how Prime deals with nitrate. It binds nitrite somehow, but in any case this binding is only temporary, for 24-36 hours, whether ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. There is no point in clogging up the fish's bloodstream with needless chemicals or substances that may start doing something else. I know Prime does react with other substances, this has been documented in other threads, but at the moment I cannot recall the exact substances so let's just recognize the possibility and avoid the situation.

EasyLife Profito is a "comprehensive" type of plant additive, and should be safe but be very careful not to overdose, and it is generally safer to under-dose and work up to the recommended dose at first. There is no point in adding more than what is actually required of any of these plant products, same reason as above--the fish. If this were accidentally overdosed, it might well cause distress for fish. If used, I would dose the tank on the day following the water change, and less than full strength, even using two doses a few days apart. I've found this works better with other fertilizers like Flourish Comprehensive. For one thing, the heavy metal detoxification in most conditioners will negate some of the minerals in the plant supplements so they are best used apart.

EasyLife liquid carbon I will assume is their EasyCarbo. They don't say the ingredients, which bothers me. The fact that it kills algae suggests some toxic chemical, perhaps glutaraldehyde (this is the ingredient in Seachem's Excel and API's CO2 Booster). This stuff may be dangerous, and doesn't belong inside fish.

You mentioned a blue ram dying. This species needs warmth, minimum 80F/27C or it will be weakened and thus susceptible to other issues. They never live their normal lifespan at cooler temperatures. However, this warmth is not appreciated by some of the other species mentioned, so for their benefit I would not replace the ram. Now, 1 or 2 degrees may not seem like much, but it is with fish; they are ectothermic, and the water temperature drives their metabolism directly.

There are livebearers mentioned, mollies and platies. These need moderately hard or harder water, the mollies in particular. The other species are softer water, though some have a certain level of tolerance. But rummynose tetra will never be "healthy" in water hard enough for mollies to be "healthy," so here there is a real problem. Without knowing the GH, Kh and pH I can't offer much more. But if these values are not suited to the species, it weakens them long-term, and again this is just one more factor into a fish not coping with something else.

The angelfish, as two were present...was this a bonded pair, or two females? If two males they would not get along at all, and a male/female might for a time or bond, whichever. My thinking here is that something like this again weakens fish so it is a factor.

The cories should be increased, they are highly social and larger groups are better and results in less stress which again is a factor.

I hope some of this helps your understanding, feel free to question anything.

Byron.
 
Hey can I just say angel fish never should be kept in a pair (that's what people advise) as the stronger one will beat on the weaker one but in 4+ the anger will be equaled out and they won't fight or you can keep them singly where they actually do the 'dance' whenever I feed it. But I've seen pairs and trips work in the past. Anyway you have very mixed fish tbh. The only possible thing is the NITRATE levels are a bit to high I consider anything under 20 to be substainable. Hopefully it works out for you but do a little water change 10% just to remove any unnecessary bacteria that could be harmful.
 
Diagnosing disease/fish problems is not always simple, as so many things can affect fish and produce similar symptoms. I seem to write it in every post lately, but the relationship of fish to their aquatic environment is very much more significant than that of land animals to air; water entering the fish is much different from air entering the lungs, and everything in the water gets inside the fish, dispersed through the bloodstream and into organs--and most all of these substances probably has some effect which will be detrimental and certainly never beneficial (except treatments for specific disease obviously).

From the information you've provided, I will only point out things I see as problems, without meaning to suggest any one is the direct cause of the deaths/behaviour. But cumulatively they can be so.

I would first recommend never adding substances to the tank water when you have done a partial water change, other than conditioner of course. These substances sometimes interact in ways we cannot expect. Conditioner is necessary if chlorine and/or chloramine is present in the source water as it is for most of us. Which conditioner you use should always be based on what you need to deal with the water, nothing more. For example, Prime detoxifies ammonia, nitrite and nitrate; unless any one or more of these is present in the source water, this is not a conditioner to be using. Seachem themselves cannot explain how Prime deals with nitrate. It binds nitrite somehow, but in any case this binding is only temporary, for 24-36 hours, whether ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. There is no point in clogging up the fish's bloodstream with needless chemicals or substances that may start doing something else. I know Prime does react with other substances, this has been documented in other threads, but at the moment I cannot recall the exact substances so let's just recognize the possibility and avoid the situation.

EasyLife Profito is a "comprehensive" type of plant additive, and should be safe but be very careful not to overdose, and it is generally safer to under-dose and work up to the recommended dose at first. There is no point in adding more than what is actually required of any of these plant products, same reason as above--the fish. If this were accidentally overdosed, it might well cause distress for fish. If used, I would dose the tank on the day following the water change, and less than full strength, even using two doses a few days apart. I've found this works better with other fertilizers like Flourish Comprehensive. For one thing, the heavy metal detoxification in most conditioners will negate some of the minerals in the plant supplements so they are best used apart.

EasyLife liquid carbon I will assume is their EasyCarbo. They don't say the ingredients, which bothers me. The fact that it kills algae suggests some toxic chemical, perhaps glutaraldehyde (this is the ingredient in Seachem's Excel and API's CO2 Booster). This stuff may be dangerous, and doesn't belong inside fish.

You mentioned a blue ram dying. This species needs warmth, minimum 80F/27C or it will be weakened and thus susceptible to other issues. They never live their normal lifespan at cooler temperatures. However, this warmth is not appreciated by some of the other species mentioned, so for their benefit I would not replace the ram. Now, 1 or 2 degrees may not seem like much, but it is with fish; they are ectothermic, and the water temperature drives their metabolism directly.

There are livebearers mentioned, mollies and platies. These need moderately hard or harder water, the mollies in particular. The other species are softer water, though some have a certain level of tolerance. But rummynose tetra will never be "healthy" in water hard enough for mollies to be "healthy," so here there is a real problem. Without knowing the GH, Kh and pH I can't offer much more. But if these values are not suited to the species, it weakens them long-term, and again this is just one more factor into a fish not coping with something else.

The angelfish, as two were present...was this a bonded pair, or two females? If two males they would not get along at all, and a male/female might for a time or bond, whichever. My thinking here is that something like this again weakens fish so it is a factor.

The cories should be increased, they are highly social and larger groups are better and results in less stress which again is a factor.

I hope some of this helps your understanding, feel free to question anything.

Byron.

Thankyou Byron that was amazingly informative.

The angels are both female - there was a male but due to aggression he was re-homed.

I think I will rehome the Rams - my GH is 15.

PH is 7
 
Hey can I just say angel fish never should be kept in a pair (that's what people advise) as the stronger one will beat on the weaker one but in 4+ the anger will be equaled out and they won't fight or you can keep them singly where they actually do the 'dance' whenever I feed it. But I've seen pairs and trips work in the past. Anyway you have very mixed fish tbh. The only possible thing is the NITRATE levels are a bit to high I consider anything under 20 to be substainable. Hopefully it works out for you but do a little water change 10% just to remove any unnecessary bacteria that could be harmful.

This is correct, and I missed the nitrate earlier, sorry about that. Nitrate at 40 ppm is too high for fish long-term. Nitrate, like ammonia and nitrite, are all poison to fish. Fish react rapidly to ammonia or nitrite above zero, whereas nitrate levels are believed to generally weaken fish so the detriment is more long-term. Studies have proven that the longer the exposure, or the higher the level of nitrate, the more it impacts the fish's physiology, so it is best to keep it as low as possible, and most reliable sources now consider 20ppm as absolute max. Unless nitrate is present in the tap water, increasing the volume of regular partial water changes, having live plants (floating are ideal), not overstocking or overfeeding, and keeping the filter clean should get this down. B.
 
Thankyou Byron that was amazingly informative.

The angels are both female - there was a male but due to aggression he was re-homed.

I think I will rehome the Rams - my GH is 15.

PH is 7

GH is OK for the livebearers, but the rummys will have difficulty in this water. The other "soft water" species should be able to manage, with possible exception of the cories if they are wild caught but the commercial species will manage. Of course, "manage" is not "thrive," and this is where the problem begins.

The mollies would be better with a more basic pH (in the high 7's) but given the high GH this is not as critical, and I wouldn't want to raise it as then the other species may have issues.
 
GH is OK for the livebearers, but the rummys will have difficulty in this water. The other "soft water" species should be able to manage, with possible exception of the cories if they are wild caught but the commercial species will manage. Of course, "manage" is not "thrive," and this is where the problem begins.

The mollies would be better with a more basic pH (in the high 7's) but given the high GH this is not as critical, and I wouldn't want to raise it as then the other species may have issues.

Thankyou for this info

I'm aware that my water isn't ideal for some of the species I have. I wish I was aware of this at the time I got them. I wasn't very clued up and went on the advice of my LFS (bad idea)

Long term I want to get the soft water species into a separate tank and have my 180 as a livebearers tank. Currently trying to raise funds for this and find some space!
 

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