What Tank To Buy

[chrisbassist]

yep, in ideal circumstances one bacteria will take 9 hours to double, the other 11 hours. but those conditions are rarely right for the fish you'll have. and probably not the conditions you'll have. so best to expect a little longer to double. (at least 13 hours) so you're talking a day really, so what difference does it make if you say 13 or 24 hours?

 

[PDSimon]

ok thanks guys

3 ppm it is, and whilst i'm cycling I shall work out what fish i want

Going to make a new cycle log

Go on, put all the test data in a spreadsheet and see the progress through graphs, you know you want to

I don't have any spread sheet programs The list will do

yep, in ideal circumstances one bacteria will take 9 hours to double, the other 11 hours. but those conditions are rarely right for the fish you'll have. and probably not the conditions you'll have. so best to expect a little longer to double. (at least 13 hours) so you're talking a day really, so what difference does it make if you say 13 or 24 hours?

I get what your saying but I don't quite understand what context you mean? Do you mean When I add fish and want to add more?

I've made a log on the forum if you guys want to follow

 

[kaivalagi]

I get what your saying but I don't quite understand what context you mean? Do you mean When I add fish and want to add more?

I've made a log on the forum if you guys want to follow

If the bacteria colony isn't big enough to cope with any new fish load you add to the tank, it will take this long to double in size and therefore certainly cope with the new load...

Do you have a link for the log?

 

[PDSimon]

I get what your saying but I don't quite understand what context you mean? Do you mean When I add fish and want to add more?

I've made a log on the forum if you guys want to follow

If the bacteria colony isn't big enough to cope with any new fish load you add to the tank, it will take this long to double in size and therefore certainly cope with the new load...

Do you have a link for the log?

Oh right, thank you

My link

 

[Curiosity101]

yep, in ideal circumstances one bacteria will take 9 hours to double, the other 11 hours. but those conditions are rarely right for the fish you'll have. and probably not the conditions you'll have. so best to expect a little longer to double. (at least 13 hours) so you're talking a day really, so what difference does it make if you say 13 or 24 hours?

^^
1. I wasn't having a go, Kaivalagi doesn't seem to have taken such offence!
2. Ideal conditions for replication is practically just that there is more nutrients in the water than they can process. The levels don't have to be sky high to give max replication rates.
3. I'd say half the time is a decent enough difference to be noted. I was mentioning it as a point of interest more than a correction

 

[PDSimon]

yep, in ideal circumstances one bacteria will take 9 hours to double, the other 11 hours. but those conditions are rarely right for the fish you'll have. and probably not the conditions you'll have. so best to expect a little longer to double. (at least 13 hours) so you're talking a day really, so what difference does it make if you say 13 or 24 hours?

^^
1. I wasn't having a go, Kaivalagi doesn't seem to have taken such offence!
2. Ideal conditions for replication is practically just that there is more nutrients in the water than they can process. The levels don't have to be sky high to give max replication rates.
3. I'd say half the time is a decent enough difference to be noted. I was mentioning it as a point of interest more than a correction

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/326318-sis-fishless-cycle/

 

[kaivalagi]

I'll watch the new topic with interest, good luck, let's hope it doesn't take too long to get and stay at zero levels

 

[waterdrop]

I had missed the final conversation where kaiv and Si were deciding to go for 3ppm instead of 5ppm and I've commented about that over in Si's fishless cycle log. And to comment further here, my opinion is that basically 3,4,5ppm (but not 1 or 7, for instance) doesn't matter in the first phase before the nitrite spike, the A-Bacs just need a good hit of ammonia to be stimulated and to let the correct species become dominant. Then its a nice tweak to ease back to about 3ppm for the nitrite spike phase (to lower overall nitrogen going in) but then for the third phase after the nitrite spike to the end its definately time to try and get it up to 5ppm so that the colonies will be as robust as possible before the "fall-back" that will happen when the actual bioload is switched in.

You have to remember that some people feel zeros at 8 or 6 hours is really better but we're trying to make a best-case compromise with 12 hour double-zeros and the qualifying week. So not dosing it up to 5ppm at the end of the fishless cycle would not create a tough enough colony pair based on many experiences we've had here.

The other thing I'll mention is that our particular autotrophs are quite slow-growing by bacterial standards, they are truly not average. I don't remember the times but they are many, many orders of magnitude slower than most of the waterborn hetero/sapro trophs. ( of course, given that there are now estimated to be upwards of 150 -million- species of microorganisms out there and most are totally unstudied and undescribed, who knows what "average" is, lol.) (as compared to what? 5000+ non micro species, the rest of the animal kingdom..) WD

 

[OldMan47]

I will go beyond what WD has said. I think we over-emphasize the 5 ppm when we are talking about the beginning of a fishless cycle. What you are trying to do at that stage is get the bacteria to reproduce. If they have a surplus of ammonia, it will happen. A 2 ppm dose of ammonia when the bacteria are not up to keeping it cleared out is plenty to encourage them to reproduce. Once you have established enough bacteria to give you a nitrite spike, there is no point to adding high levels of ammonia, it is counter-productive. So when is 5 ppm appropriate? It is appropriate when you are nearing the end and want to increase the bacterial population to a high enough level to give you a robust bacterial colony that can handle anything that you can throw at it. When your nitrite spike has started to reduce toward zero levels is plenty soon enough to begin dosing to such high levels. In theory, a 2 ppm processing colony will become a 5 ppm colony in less than 2 days. Why would I start such a thing any sooner? The final qualifying week is plenty soon enough for those dosing levels.

 

[chrisbassist]

yep, in ideal circumstances one bacteria will take 9 hours to double, the other 11 hours. but those conditions are rarely right for the fish you'll have. and probably not the conditions you'll have. so best to expect a little longer to double. (at least 13 hours) so you're talking a day really, so what difference does it make if you say 13 or 24 hours?

^^
1. I wasn't having a go, Kaivalagi doesn't seem to have taken such offence!
2. Ideal conditions for replication is practically just that there is more nutrients in the water than they can process. The levels don't have to be sky high to give max replication rates.
3. I'd say half the time is a decent enough difference to be noted. I was mentioning it as a point of interest more than a correction

I wasn't either, sorry if it came across that way...
by ideal conditions, i'd say theres more than just food source required, there's water temp to consider (which generally we'll keep aquariums slightly lower than ideal) there's pH to consider, which will rarely be "right". then you have to wait for the first one to start providing the second one with food for that to develop, so i'd say 24 hours is a much much safer estimate. plus if it's gonna take over 13 hours, i meant may as well say a day, since you'll be asleep for part of it....

again, mean no offence to anyone, just stating things as I understand them.

 

[waterdrop]

I will go beyond what WD has said. I think we over-emphasize the 5 ppm when we are talking about the beginning of a fishless cycle. What you are trying to do at that stage is get the bacteria to reproduce. If they have a surplus of ammonia, it will happen. A 2 ppm dose of ammonia when the bacteria are not up to keeping it cleared out is plenty to encourage them to reproduce. Once you have established enough bacteria to give you a nitrite spike, there is no point to adding high levels of ammonia, it is counter-productive. So when is 5 ppm appropriate? It is appropriate when you are nearing the end and want to increase the bacterial population to a high enough level to give you a robust bacterial colony that can handle anything that you can throw at it. When your nitrite spike has started to reduce toward zero levels is plenty soon enough to begin dosing to such high levels. In theory, a 2 ppm processing colony will become a 5 ppm colony in less than 2 days. Why would I start such a thing any sooner? The final qualifying week is plenty soon enough for those dosing levels.

Yes, I have often thought this, that you could basically start very low and gradually increase the load (eg. 1ppm, 2ppm, 3ppm, 4ppm and finish at 5ppm.) It certainly makes sense with most of what we know and it may very well work just great or even better than what we usually do. My two reasons for hesitating though, which are not scientific or anything, are just that first, more or less straight 5ppm cycles (meaning 5ppm from the beginning and all through) are basically what we've got the majority of cases (including many successful fishless cycles) of, and secondly that I was pretty impressed with the fairly large range of cycling techniques (many from other sites but also taking into account a few methods being used at TFF I think) that RDD reviewed and used to pull together his amalgam.

WD