What Should I Do Re: Cycling And Nitartes/nitrites

[tammy64]

Sorry, this may be a bit confusing...I'm hoping for some advice as to what I should do next regarding cycling for my new aquarium as I'm getting a bit confused!
So my DD got the aquarium for Christmas. It is a 90L AquaEl tank. I'll go through the steps I've done so far...
On Dec 27th I set up the tank. I rinsed the gravel and put this in the tank. I then filled the tank after treating the water for chlorine. Chlorine levels are fine. I added the filter and heater and turned them both on. Both are working (well at least bubbles are coming out of the filter so am guessing its effective )I added artificial plants, a clam with air pump and added the correct amount of stress zyme.
On the Saturday (so 5 days) I took a water sample in and it was tested. I was told the nitrate (or maybe nitrite- sorry)was sky high and was advised to add 3 capfuls of Easyneo a day until the Saturday and to do a 25-50% water change. I did 40% (dechlorinated) the following Saturday took another sample and all levels ok except again nitrate. Advised same thing and just to be patient. Was suggested not to add more Stress Zyme but continue with Easyneo. Did that and water change again, water check yesterday showed levels still as high
I was advised to get a Fluval clearmax which I have added and to carry on with the Easyneo.
After reading the link here about cycling...I don't know where to go from here
Should I start adding ammonia? I would love any advice (please don't tell me to start again
Thank you

 

[divetime84]

just to confirm you have no fish in the tank then yeah you cam add ammonia to get the level to about 5ppm and do not add any thing else to the water and do not do water changes as you are wasting your time keep adding the ammonia till you get a spike in nitright and keep dosing with ammonia till you start getting a reading of nitrate then start testing your water you want to have 0 ammonia 0 nitright and anything under 10ppm in nitrate it will take some time depending on size and turn up the heat to around 29 30c during the cycling process as it helps the bacteria grow.

but you will want to have a look on the forum for fish less cycling because i may be a little off because it has been a long time when i did it

good luck

 

[waterdrop]

No, you don't need to "start again" thank heaven!

Welcome to TFF Tammy and I know the members will get you off to a great start! That retailer must be happy as a clam to have sold you so many chemicals right off the start. You hardly need anything other than a good conditioner and then some simple household ammonia from the grocery or hardware store... and then the most fun thing of all (now that you've found TFF ) the knowledge of how to Fishless Cycle!

I'll be back later at some point (lot's of members will help) but your main homework is to read the 3 articles in the Beginners Resource Center called The Nitrogen Cycle, The Fishless Cycle and The Fish-In Cycle and begin to get a handle on those ideas to help you ask deeper questions of the members. It's all going to sound "wacky" for a while, lol, but it's going to save you a lot of dead fish and expensive bottles and in the end it can help make you an "experienced" aquarist in less time than otherwise.

Oh, and also note that you're truly going to need to do your own testing. Most of us like the API Freshwater Master Test Kit and a good middle-of-the-road and effective learning tool. So that's another aspect of getting started now that you've found some serious help!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[divetime84]

hi mate found this but i did not know hoe to put a link in so here is it all

There are threads almost daily about the proper method for fishless cycling. In actuality, a Google search will result in hundreds of links and each of those will give you slightly different instructions. I wanted to cover two of the most common ones and their advantages and disadvantages.

Let me start by saying that when you cycle a tank, you are really cycling the filter. That is where the vast majority of the nitrifying bacteria will colonize. Some bacteria are present on the tank walls, decorations, and in the substrate but for the most part they are in/on the filter. Basically, there are NO nitrifying bacteria present in the water itself.

First, a couple things that are common regardless of which method you use. Obviously, you set up the tank with clean, dechlorinated water. I believe it is best to fill the tank and let any sand/gravel dust or cloudiness settle for a few days before you add ammonia. This will prevent cloudy water from giving you a skewed reading when you test. Second, raise the water temperature to the mid to upper 80s. I have even had success with temperatures in the low 90s. The warmer water promotes bacteria growth and will speed the cycle. Also, you will need to add extra aeration via an air stone and air pump. The warmer water temperature will force the oxygen from the water so you must add aeration to replenish it.

Items Needed:

Bottle of pure ammonia. If you don't know where to find it, this thread may help you. Pure ammonia will only list ammonia and water as ingredients. Chelating agents are ok. Without going into great detail, that is simply a bonding agent that keeps the ammonia and water "mixed". If it lists dyes, fragrances or surfactants, you don't want it. If the bottle doesn't have an ingredient label, shake the bottle. If it foams, it won't work. A few air bubbles that disappear immediately are ok.
A good test master test kit. Get a good liquid master test kit. Those generally contain tests for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH and high pH. You won't necessarily need the pH tests during the cycling process but you will later. I would also suggest getting a KH test kit too although, once again, it's not necessary for the cycling process.
A medicine dropper. Any cheap one that you get at the local drug store will do.

While you are waiting on the dust to settle and the water to clear, I suggest you do a couple things. First, test the parameters of your tap water. It is important to know the pH and KH of your tap water so you will know what fish are compatible with your pH. It is also very important to know if there is any ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in your tap water. A lot of municipal water supplies have some or all of those present and well water could also have them present. Knowing that could save you a lot of head scratching later when you have an elevated level that may be caused by your tap water rather than a problem in the tank.

You should also run a little test to determine how much ammonia to add to your tank. Since medicine droppers come in all different sizes, it's hard to say that you need X drops per gallon to get to 4 or 5 ppm to start. I have 3 different droppers for adding fertilizers and for drawing tank water for testing and there is a big difference in the size drops they dispense. Take a small bucket, one of the buckets you used to fill your tank or wash you're sand. Fill it with water and then add 2 to 4 drops of ammonia per 5 gallon of water. Swirl it around to mix it and test to see what the ammonia reading is. Continue to do this until your reading is 4 or 5 ppm. Remember how many drops of ammonia you added and then, some simple maths will tell you how much to add to your tank to get the 4 or 5 ppm required to begin cycling. You can also use a test tube to add it. The amount required will depend on the concentration of the ammonia but 1ml (about 1/5th US teaspoonful) will usually raise 5 gallon to about 5ppm.

Ok. Your tank is set up, the water has cleared, and you know how much ammonia to add. Let's get started.

"Add and Wait" Method

This is the method I have used to cycle 5 tanks (from 2.5 to 75 gallon) and it has worked perfectly. I think it is the simplest and requires the least amount of work. First add your ammonia to raise the level to 4 to 5 ppm (see ammonia calculator here at bottom of page). Now you simply wait on the ammonia to drop back to around 1 ppm. Spend the time researching the fish you like and see if they are compatible with each other, with your tap pH, tank size, etc.

Test daily to see what the ammonia reading is. There is no use to test for anything else. Nitrite and nitrate won't be present until some ammonia has processed. Ammonia will raise your pH so no use to test it either. Once you see a drop in the ammonia, test for nitrite. There should be some present. When the ammonia drops back to about near zero (usually takes about a week), add enough to raise it back to about 3 to 4 ppm and begin testing the nitrite daily.

Every time the ammonia drops back to zero, raise it back up to 3 to 4 ppm and continue to check nitrites. The nitrite reading will go off the chart. NOTE FOR API TEST KIT USERS: When you add the drops, if they immediately turn purple in the bottom of the tube, your nitrites are off the chart high. You do not need to shake the tube and wait 5 minutes. If you do, the color will turn green as the nitrites are so high that there isn't a color to measure them with. Once the ammonia is dropping from around 4 ppm back to zero in 12 hours or less you have sufficient bacteria to handle the ammonia your fish load produces. Continue to add ammonia daily as you must feed the bacteria that have formed or they will begin to die off.

The nitrite spike will generally take about twice as long to drop to zero as did the ammonia spike. The reason for this is two-fold. First, the nitrite processing bacteria just develop slower than those that process ammonia. Second, you are adding more nitrite daily (every time you add ammonia, it is transformed into nitrite raising the level a little more) as opposed to the ammonia, which you only add once at the start and then waited on it to drop to zero. During this time, you should occasionally test for nitrate too. The presence of nitrate means that nitrite is being processed, completing the nitrogen cycle. The nitrate level will also go off the chart but you will take care of that with a large water change later. It will seem like forever before the nitrite finally falls back to zero but eventually, almost overnight, it will drop and you can celebrate. You are almost there. Once the bacteria are able to process 4 or 5 ppm of ammonia back to zero ammonia and nitrite in about 10 to 12 hours. You are officially cycled. You can continue this for a few days just to make sure it isn't a one time thing and of course, you need to continue to add ammonia up until the day before you get your fish.

At this point, your tank will probably look terrible with brown algae everywhere and probably cloudy water. As I mentioned, the nitrate reading will also be off the chart. Nitrates can only be removed with water changes. Do a large water change, 75 to 90 percent, turn the heat down to the level the fish you have decided on will need, and you are ready to add your fish. You can safely add your full fish load as your tank will have enough bacteria built up to handle any waste they can produce.

"Add Daily" Method

I call this the "Add Daily" method because that is what you do. The start is exactly like the other method. To begin, you add enough ammonia to raise the level to 4 or 5 ppm (see ammonia calculator here at bottom of page). The difference is that the next day and each day thereafter you add the same amount. This continues until the ammonia drops to zero. This will take much longer than the other method because of the massive amount of ammonia the tank will initially contain. It generally takes about 3 days before any bacteria begin to form and you are able to notice even a small change in the color of your tests. In the other method, on the 3rd day there will still only be about 4 or 5 ppm of ammonia in the tank. With the "Add Daily" method, there will be approximately 12 to 15 ppm on the 3rd day so you need a lot of bacteria to process all of that.

Once the ammonia finally drops back to near zero, cut the amount of ammonia you are adding daily in half. That will still be plenty to keep the bacteria already developed fed. Continue to add the ammonia daily and test for nitrites. Once the nitrite drops back to zero, do your big water change and add your fish.

Advantages & Disadvantages: As I mentioned, the cycling process will take longer using the "Add Daily" method simply because you are forcing the bacteria to process quite a bit more ammonia. The advantage of that method though is that there will be much more bacteria present at the end than in the "Add & Wait" method. If you plan to have a heavy fish load (overstock) or keep messy fish (plecos, goldfish and Oscars for example), this may be the best way for you to go.

If you plan to keep normal tropicals with normal stocking levels as I do, cycling with the "Add & Wait" method should work fine for you. It has worked well for me. Some articles I have read even stated that if the ammonia level ever goes over 6 to 8 ppm that it severely slows the process and is a waste of time and effort.

Summation: As I said to begin, these are only 2 versions of the fishless cycle. There are numerous variations on these methods. One way to speed the cycling process is to "seed" the tank with a bacteria source from an established tank. See if a friend can give you an old filter from one of their tanks or if the local fish store has some gravel, filter media or anything that will provide a bacteria source. Any bacteria source will help.

As a general rule, don't waste your time or money on "bacteria starter" products such as Cycle or Prime. The consensus is that they serve no useful purpose. The fact that they have been shipped on un-refrigerated trucks and stored in hot warehouses leads most to believe that there couldn't possibly be any live bacteria left in the bottles. One possible exception is Bio Spira. I have personally not used this product but most things I have read suggest it works IF it has been handled properly (always refrigerated). Only purchase it from a reputable source that you trust.

Regardless of which method you choose, please, for the sake of your fish, do a fishless cycle. It prevents them from having to go through all the toxins and saves you a LOT of water changes, stress and lost fish. A little patience in the beginning will pay big dividends down the road.

Edit: I said that there was no use to test the pH as it didn't matter but after more reading, I have found that isn't entirely true. The optimal pH range for nitrification is about 7.0 to 8.0. As pH gets lower and closer to 6.0, the nitrification process severely slows. Below 6.0, the bacteria basically go dormant and stop reproducing. The bacteria that are present will continue to process ammonia and nitrite but the size of the colony will not grow or will grow very slowly. So in actuality, you do need to test pH to make sure it isn't too low.

Edit 2: There have been questions about high nitrate levels. While nitrate is indeed harmful to fish, that is only at very high levels, nothing our test kits will measure. Once the fish are in the tank, you want to keep the nitrate level as low as possible but that isn't as much for the fish as it is to prevent other issues such as algae. Once the fishless cycle is complete, the nitrate level will probably be 200 ppm or higher but a large 90% water change will take care of that. Try to lower the level to no more than about 20 ppm above your tap water before adding fish and you will be fine.

 

[Curiosity101]

Good news: You don't need to start again
Bad news: You haven't actually started anything!

Sorry... I had to say that.

Much as it made me giggle, I am being serious. Right now nothing has started in your tank, and your water stats are as good as they will ever be as they are your tap water stats.
If you nitrates are too high then it's cause they're high in your tap water. Nothing you can do about that unless you buy the special 'RO' water from your local fish shop, or buy yourself an RO machine. However I'm getting ahead of myself here.

Firstly, can I suggest you buy your own test kit... API master test kit is a good one. It has everything you need to monitor your own water levels at home.
Secondly, there is no point testing for anything really at the moment other than to find out what your tap water pH and Nitrates are, that way you have a basis for planning what fish will be a good fit for the water in your area.
As for your Nitrates, can you find out what the actual reading was? Don't let them just say 'high' or 'low' or anything else like that. We need a number, either in ppm or mg per litre.
Another thing, stop letting them fob you off with magic products to 'fix' a problem. Never let them 'fix' a problem for you where you don't entirely understand the problem in the first place. It's a very easy way for them to part you from your cash for no good reason.

Right... on to cycling. When we refer to cycling we're talking about growing colonies of bacteria that under take the nitrogen cycle. They turn ammonia to nitrite, and nitrite to nitrate.
Ammonia and nitrite are toxic to fish at any level, but are particularly toxic over around 0.25ppm (or 0.25mg).
Nitrates are safe up until really high levels, often around 100ppm, however depending on what country you're in there are limits on how high the tap water nitrates can be. I don't think I've seen tap water nitrates in the UK above 40ppm, and I think the US is stricter and has much lower limits (don't quote me on that though).

Obviously cycling can't start until you have ammonia as the bacteria have nothing to feed on. And the second set of bacteria (the ones that convert nitrites) can't grow until the first set start turning ammonia into nitrites.
So at the moment your tank isn't cycling and so technically your stats should be 'perfect'. Or seemingly perfect...
If you read the links in my signature about cycling, fishless cycling and fish-in cycling then you'll have a better understanding of cycling in general, and also you'll be able to make and informed choice as to which type of cycling you want to do.
As a brief overview:
Fish-in cycling: Means you can get a couple of small fish straight away but you'll need to do large (often 80%+) daily water changes for a number of weeks to keep levels of ammonia and nitrite down until the bacteria can do it. And you also have to stock very slowly. A couple of new fish a week once the intial cycle has completed and you're not seeing ammonia and nitrites registering in the water anymore.
Fishless: No fish for the first 6-8weeks, no daily water changes, can fully stock the tank once it's ready. Requires you adding ammonia (often daily), and testing the water levels just to keep track of how your cycle is progressing.

Hope that's given you some food for thought n all that. And I really hope I haven't just confused you further.
Eitherways, stop buying chemicals and such from your local fish shop. You really don't need them.

 

[Gvilleguy]

I knew by the time I typed up a reply you would probably get several others of the same, but just in case there is anything below that helps, I will post it anyway!

Where are you located? UK?

I didn't read anywhere in there that you have actually added fish, so you are in GOOD shape! Most forum members here will recommend that the "store bought" chemical treatments are not as good as just doing a regular ole fishless cycle on your aquarium. So, if you are looking for advice, I'd say reading the fishless cycle thread in the beginner's section is exactly what you should be doing. But you shouldn't have to start over, just start doing some new things, and your tank already has a couple of weeks under its belt with growing helpful bacteria.

So a few recommendations from me would be:

1. Purchase a liquid-based test kit that tests pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. I recommend using the API Freshwater Master Kit (around $30-35 USD).
2. Get a good thermometer for the tank (if you don't already have one), and raise the tank temp to 29C/84F.
3. Purchase some PURE ammonia - it can't have anything added to it. This can be tough to find. In England I believe people are able to get this at Boots - in the US we have good luck with ACE Hardware.
4. I thought the easier fishless cycle method was "add and wait". You add enough ML of ammonia to raise the ammonia levels to 5 ppm in the tank. With 90L I think you would add about 2.5 ML of ammonia to raise it to that level. Then you wait, wait, and wait. And wait some more, until the level of ammonia gets down in the 0-1 ppm range. And then you add more to get it back up to 5 ppm, etc. Rinse and repeat.

During this time your filter is processing the ammonia from the water by growing bacteria that like to eat ammonia. Those bacteria give off waste in the form of nitrites. So then your filter starts to grow the bacteria that like to eat nitrites (these grow at a much slower rate). So as you start to see your ammonia drop to zero for the first time, you should start to see some nitrites showing up.

5. Start a new thread in here with "Tammy64's Fishless Cycle Log", or something similar, and format it to show your setup information and water test results. If you would like an example, here is the log I created last year for my own tank:

Greenville Guy's Fishless Cycle Log

There are some other things to consider, such as temporarily raising the tank pH to a level that the bacteria prefer, but I would wait and get all of the other stuff started before worrying about it. Please post back with questions.

 

[divetime84]

Gvilleguy just reading you log and i see that you have ammonia in your tap water i did not think to check mine tap water,lol

something new everyday

 

[Gvilleguy]

Gvilleguy just reading you log and i see that you have ammonia in your tap water i did not think to check mine tap water,lol

something new everyday

That ammonia in my tap water is a constant source of irritation! I have extremely soft water(zero KH/GH & pH = 6.0), which means my filters are delicate. Any disturbance to the filter media (like careful cleanings) and they enter a mini-cyle that takes a long time to recover, since the pH is so low that bacteria are slow to grow. And because of the ammonia in the source water I cannot utilize water changes to reduce the levels of ammonia to zero when this happens.

 

[tammy64]

Thank you so much for your quick replies!! It does make sense to me what you're all saying but I just feel a bit lost
So tomorrow I'll get a tester kit and start a new thread detailing my stats and maybe you can suggest things from there.
I really appreciate this and feel more hopeful that my DD will get her Christmas fish before next Christmas!!
thank you

 

[Aqua Tom]

Welcome to the forum & good luck with your upcoming fishless cycle.