What Is This/are We Doing Enough?

[Iiridellia]

http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL5AcleKebU - I couldn't get a picture for ya'll, so this will unfortunately have to do.


As you all can see, my angel is very very sick. We've been unable to keep Angels with any level of sucess. This is a fairly new tank (Running for about a month)... We didn't notice the other fish having any major issues till recently, when.. whatever this is... seems to have spread from the Angel Fish to the others. Since, we've lost a gold gourami and a bala shark.

We started some treatment today. We had treated a while prior, and it didn't seem to be helping anything. Suddenly, though, things have gone from 'bad' with the Angels to 'worse' with everything! So we're raising the temperature to 86, in the hope of speeding.. whatever this is... up, in its cycle. We're also treating with Ich meds. We have a bubble wand and a airstone in the tank, so they DO have enough oxygen... Lotsa bubbles.


Hard to test the water, we don't personally have a kit.


Tank size: 55 Gallons
pH: 7.2, or so.
ammonia: WAS High (up around 2) but it shouldn't be any longer
nitrite: Normal
nitrate: Normal
kH: Normal
gH: Normal
tank temp: 82, right now. We're raising it up to 86.

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior):


Grey film over the body. Fins seem to be seethrough at the tips, having lost the color. They're also very ragged. The fish seems to act fine up till about a day or two before death; at first we thought it was Ick (Which it may have started out as) due to white spots on the body. However, the white spots were much to large to be ick, looking like small patches of white growth rather than a sprinkling of salt, but now it seems as if they are covered in what is almost a slime type growth. They begin to loose balance, almost, and hover towards either the top or bottom of the tank. If the slight current from out filters or bubbles hit them, they flop all about in the flow of the water... till finally they stick to the filter and pass on.

Volume and Frequency of water changes: Normaly - 25%, every 2 weeks. We, however, did a 50% waterchange over the weekend in an attempt to lower the ammonia, which tested at 2.

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: Suppose this means Filter media? We have a standard carbon filter media in the filter.

Tank inhabitants: Due to recent losses, a bit sparse - 1 dying bala shark, 1 dying Angel Fish, 2 Giant Danios, and 1 Feather-fin catfish.

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): None

Exposure to chemicals: We have started treatment with Rid-Ich+ from Kordons today. Before that, when we did the water change, we put in 2 caps of Prime [ 1 cap for 50 gallons ] - 1 would have probably been enough, but my father didn't want to treat the water in the buckets before dumping it in, so the extra was put in to try and soften the blow of the water without those 4 drops of Prime in it a minute prior to dumping. I sort of agree with the logic, but who knows... that may be what instigated the killing.

Digital photo (include if possible): http/www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL5AcleKebU This was the best I could do, seeing as the camera didn't want to focus on the fish.



Thought I should add: I'm in the USA, btw. South East.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Your tank is not cycled!

Your Ammonia and Nitrite should be at 0 ppm! If they are not, then a water change is in order to bring them back down!

Any ammonia level at or above .25 ppm will cause permanent gill damage to fish and will kill them!

Any nitrite level at or above .25 ppm will cause permanent nerve and brain damage and will kill them!

Also, ammonia and/or nitrite at or above .25 ppm will cause extreme stress to the fish and will cause them to do what your angel is doing.

You need to read here, http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=224306

You are in a fish-in cycle, and URGENT attention is a Must!

Please, do at least a 75% water change, Please! When you do the water change make sure you add the proper amount of water conditioner back to the tank!

Your fishis really stressed from very bad water parameters (ammonia and nitrite) and that caused him to get sick!

You NEED a good LIQUID test kit such as the API fresh water master test kit or a Salifert test kit. DO NOT get a strip test kit, as strip test kits are no good and inaccurate!

A good LIQUID test kits, as I have mentioned above, is a must for any fish keeper!

-FHM

 

[kribensis12]

I agree with FHM. It appears to be Fin and tail rot. Look into a med for it online or at your lfs. Ich treatment won't do anything for it.

 

[Iiridellia]

I'm confused, then.


I was under the impression that the tank HAD cycled. We bought it, cleaned it, set it up. Put in water, added Prime and Stability. the next day, because I was impatient, we bought some feeder minnows just to have -something- in the tank. They seemed to be doing fine, we fed them, and cared for them till about day 3 or 4. Day 3 or 4, we bought 2 Giant Danios, 1 gold gourami, and 1 bala shark. Put them in, added more stability with them. At this point, the water was cloudy. The next day, we put in 1 more bala, and 3 angels. Everything was going fine, no one (not even the Minnows that we'd expected to keel over from the raising temperature... it was, at that point, sitting at 80) was having any problems. Then, the water cleared. I assumed it was because the cycling had finished. Then, all at once, the three angels broke out with something. No one else was affected, and all three were covered in large (not salt sized, but much larger...) white spots. We treated with some Ich meds, and they Disappeared for the most part. Then.... the three minnows died within 1 day of each other. A week later, 2 of the angels died. We replaced them with two more. At some point, we also picked up the Featherfin Catfish. Finally... the new black angel (also smaller) died. Next was Ringo, the old angel we'd had now for about 3 weeks. The signs they were exhibiting was a grey film covering their entire bodies. Fins looked ragged. The Gourami (poor George, you were so chill!) also died when Ringo died. The remaining angel was/is covered in this film, his fins almost eaten completely away. One of our two Bala's (Named simple, Name) also died in this same 24 hour period - we hadn't noticed any symptoms whatsoever in the Bala's.

Now, finally, Silver (the last Angel) is dying. The remaining Bala (named Bob)seems to be loosing his .. balance.. and I'm afraid he'll die today too. The two Danios could care less, and it seems the Catfish is unaffected.


In short - I thought that this was disease, rather than the tank being uncycled. We've been putting bacteria in with every water change, as well as treating with Prime.

Also, we're looking at grabbing a tank from the store to use as a quarantine tank [One of the kits from walmart]. how fast can we set this up and have it ready to go? ... Seeing as treating the remaining fish in it will be much cheaper and easier in the smaller tank than our 55 Gallon.

 

[WILDER]

Do the spots have any redness to them.Any fluffy cotton wool on the fish.

The symtoms you are describing can be ph shock, bacterial, parasites, bad water quality.

Any signs of flicking and rubbing, darting, erratic swimmng, laboured breathing.

Need to rule out columnaris.


Columnaris (a.k.a. Mouth Fungus)



Symptoms:

An infected fish will have off-white to gray cotton-like patches on the head, fins, gills, body and particularly the mouth. In time, these areas will develop into open sores. Gill swelling may occur, gill filaments may stick together and excessive mucus may develop in the gill area. Rapid breathing can be seen. Fins may deteriorate to the point of leaving the fin rays bare. Muscles may be inflamed and capillaries may rupture. Fish, particularly livebearers, may exhibit "shimmying". Infection may be acute (killing an infected fish within hours), or chronic (lingering for several days before eventually killing the fish). As with most diseases, not all symptoms need be present.



Cause:

The bacterium Flexibacter columnaris.



Treatment:

Ensure that your water conditions (e.g., Ammonia, Nitrite, pH, Nitrate levels, and water temp.) are within their proper ranges. If not, perform a water change and/or treat the water accordingly. Recommended medications include: Furanace, Fungus Eliminator, Fungus Cure, Furacyn, Furan-2, Triple Sulfa, E.M. Tablets, Tetracycline, or Potassium Permanganate. Medicated foods are also recommended. Columnaris can be highly infectious and may quickly kill all aquarium inhabitants; therefore, early treatment is essential. All fish, including those not yet showing visible symptoms, as well as the aquarium they inhabit should be treated.

http/www.flippersandfins.net/flexibacter.htm

 

[fatheadminnow]

I'm confused, then.


I was under the impression that the tank HAD cycled. We bought it, cleaned it, set it up. Put in water, added Prime and Stability. the next day, because I was impatient, we bought some feeder minnows just to have -something- in the tank. They seemed to be doing fine, we fed them, and cared for them till about day 3 or 4. Day 3 or 4, we bought 2 Giant Danios, 1 gold gourami, and 1 bala shark. Put them in, added more stability with them. At this point, the water was cloudy. The next day, we put in 1 more bala, and 3 angels. Everything was going fine, no one (not even the Minnows that we'd expected to keel over from the raising temperature... it was, at that point, sitting at 80) was having any problems. Then, the water cleared. I assumed it was because the cycling had finished. Then, all at once, the three angels broke out with something. No one else was affected, and all three were covered in large (not salt sized, but much larger...) white spots. We treated with some Ich meds, and they Disappeared for the most part. Then.... the three minnows died within 1 day of each other. A week later, 2 of the angels died. We replaced them with two more. At some point, we also picked up the Featherfin Catfish. Finally... the new black angel (also smaller) died. Next was Ringo, the old angel we'd had now for about 3 weeks. The signs they were exhibiting was a grey film covering their entire bodies. Fins looked ragged. The Gourami (poor George, you were so chill!) also died when Ringo died. The remaining angel was/is covered in this film, his fins almost eaten completely away. One of our two Bala's (Named simple, Name) also died in this same 24 hour period - we hadn't noticed any symptoms whatsoever in the Bala's.

Now, finally, Silver (the last Angel) is dying. The remaining Bala (named Bob)seems to be loosing his .. balance.. and I'm afraid he'll die today too. The two Danios could care less, and it seems the Catfish is unaffected.


In short - I thought that this was disease, rather than the tank being uncycled. We've been putting bacteria in with every water change, as well as treating with Prime.

Also, we're looking at grabbing a tank from the store to use as a quarantine tank [One of the kits from walmart]. how fast can we set this up and have it ready to go? ... Seeing as treating the remaining fish in it will be much cheaper and easier in the smaller tank than our 55 Gallon.

It takes on average 4-6 weeks (usually 2+ months) for a tank to properly cycle. Unfortunately the staff at your fish store told you to do it this way, am I correct?

Your tank is not cycled, please trust me on that!

You need to get a good LIQUID test kit so you can start to test for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH every day until your tank has cycled.

Then you need to post up solid numbers for ammonia and nitrite. Saying your ammonia or nitrite levels are "normal" is not accurate. There is no such thing as "normal" as normal does not imply a solid, static number. Ammonia and Nitrite MUST be at 0 ppm for a tank to be cycled, and they must stay there 100% of the time!

Please read that link I gave your in my previous post, as you are in a fish-in cycle. We here like to cycle tanks without fish (fishless) where you add pure ammonia to the tank.

Also, products that claim to cycle tanks, such as Stability, are no good and useless, they do not work.

Read that article I sent you, please.

-FHM

 

[Iiridellia]

Just did some testing of the water with the API liquid drop test kit.




Here's the readings we got -
Ammonia - 0.50 ppm
Nitrate - 0 ppm, Getting close to 5.0 ppm
Nitrite - 2.0 ppm
PH - 7.4
Temperature - 86


We did another 50% water change after, adding a full cap for Prime (We replaced about half the water, so doing a full does is enough for the new water and more), and did a thorough cleaning of the gravel as well. After, we added another dose of Kordons Rid-Ich+ (talked to the owner of a lfs, and he said it sounds mostly like velvet).

We have the filters pulled out by the way, because of the Rid-ich treatment, though the pump is still going for aeration.



I mean... what else can we do today? We've bought a five gallon tank today, and will be be setting it up soon as a Quarantine/Hospital tank.

 

[Iiridellia]

The spots, btw, are not spots any longer - rather, they're an entire body film. The fins are not reddened at all, just slowly being eaten away/almost see-through. I've only seen them moving drunkenly. The bala's though.. they ... twitch(ed)? I just figured that was normal, seeing as they've done it all along.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Do not pull the filters out! This is where your beneficial bacteria live that process Ammonia and Nitrite!

You need to keep the filters running 24/7 (minus the time to clean them)!

You also need to do more water changes to bring down the ammonia and nitrite levels to or below .25 ppm!

I don't think you know how bad it is to have your fish exposed to levels of ammonia and nitrite above .25 ppm! It is VERY bad!

-FHM

 

[kribensis12]

I agree with Trent. Ammonia burns the fish, and NitrIte will sufficate the fish by posoining the blood stream. I would recommend doing an 85 percent water change tonight, testing the water, and then doing a 50 percent tomorrow morning, and another 50 percent tomorrow night. You MUST keep the water levels under control. Ideally, your ammonia and nitrIte should BOTH be at ZERO. NitrAte isn't something to worry about unless it starts to go over 60.

 

[Kitty_Nin]

Oh lord, that poor poor baby. Seeing that makes me want to cry.

Prime is useless. It is just water, essentially. Please follow the advice of the others and READ that article that FHM sent you! If you are too impatient to cycle your tank, then this is not the hobby for you!!