What Does A Long Time Ei Tank Look Like? How About Those Fish?

[plantbrain]

Well, some one asked, it's not like I have kept it a secret either:

Look at these sick fish after 3 years
Cardinals are suppose to be sensitive.

These come up and bite me

I spend 1.5 hours or so on the tank a week, that's it.
They dose 3x a week.

There's far more fish in here than you think.

There are several Apistos

Another 1/2 dead sickly fish after 3 years also?

Hummm.............

Here's one of the Acanthicus adonis, black statan plecos, this one is the runt, at 7", there are two that are about 10-12".
Not the best photo, but they always run and hide when I turn the lights on and I'm only there to service the tank and take a few snap shots.

I bought these little guys when they where about 1.5", little kittens.

I have P leopardus after 5-6", 4 Synodonits multipunctus, 3 Mango plecos, 4 gold spotted plecos, 2 Vampire plecos, 2 sribbled plecos. Gold dojos, N botia, otto cats(maybe 70), a few others running around in there.

All these fish have been exposed to standard high EI dosing and high feeding rates, high bioload for 3 full years.
No poor health, never disease, several eggs patches and breeding events took place, but the eggs get eaten.

Temp is 82F.

Easy tank to care for.

I am going to switch out the flourite and go with Flourite Black I think.
I'm not that happy with the scape, but the client prevented me from altering it and likes it this way.
So I'm slowly moving it around so there's not a dramatic shift.
I'll get a chance when I change the sediment over to really do a good redo.

Here's what it looked like 2 years ago:

Now this is recent.
And for a client.

What about other folks, like hobbyists?
Say a guy with less than a year in the hobby?
http/showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2003...vol=2&id=71

James used EI.

So what can I say when folks bash EI and make cliams that it hurts their fish with excess levels of nutrients and other fear and doom claims?

Where's the evidence that this is true?
I ask because I am not seeing it even though after many years, I still have never had a disease, a sick fish, nor any deaths, I get good breeding results even though I'm no longer trying to breed fish. I use to do a lot of breeding until I started really focusing on plants, so I know fish very very well before even coming to plants seriously.

I like how some folks have claimed that a method killed their fish, heck CO2 kills fish too, folks do it all the time, that has nothing to do with dosing KNO3 though. Fish die in non planted tanks all the time for many unexplained reasons.

However, rather than trying to prove something here, I just have to prove what it is not, in this case EI = poor fish health.

If it was due solely to the dosing, then we should and would have to see and ngetaive effect on the fish, plants etc in these tanks if it was due to KNO3, NO3 etc as these hacks claim in their hypothesis.

What controls do they have and do they test their own hypothesis and questions?
I do and I can obviously produce a control tank that's in good shape with a good healthy plants and fish.

From there, you add more and more NO3 as KNO3 till you get a negative response.
The person dosing made a mistake and added 150ppm worth of KNO3 one week to this tank.
I said 15ppm.

They missed a decimal point!
So the fish and shrimp got exposed to 10x the dose.

I did not lose a single fish after 3-4 days.
I did lose 1/2 the Amano shrimp.
Since then, the plecos have eaten the remaining shrimp anyway.



Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[RadaR]

Agree with you all the way, Tom. I have the up most confidence in the EI method and if it doesn't work then it is down to my own miscalculations.

 

[Heather.]

Stunning tank you have.. Keep up the good work... x

 

[George Farmer]

Good to hear, Tom.

I've been running EI in all my set ups over the last 3 years. No fish health issues, or algae issues. Great plant growth too...

PFK magazine have just included EI in their "jargon buster". A good sign.

 

[Spank]

Wow, that tank is incredible!!

What's the bright blue Apisto you have?

 

[john starkey]

Hi Tom, i cannot see how people can disclaim your results and point fingers, i think people who struggle with ei is through their own incompetence and dont give the ei system a chance, from the pictures you have shown us i think they are proof enough and i think the planted hobby owe you a great big thank you for coming up with this plant feeding method, regards john.

 

[nry]

Any 'regime' like EI needs time to stabilise - I would say that it has taken ~3 months for my tank to get close to stable, and will probably take another 2 months to get there completely.

When I started EI I had the expected (at least by me!) algae problems, hair, fuzz, and a small bit of BGA. Patience and a bit of experience later things are really clearing up and plants are going nuts.

Hopefully no regular forum members here doubt the ability of EI to create a stable and stunning planted tank - whether it suits everyone is another question, but for those who want to give it a go and are willing to exercise patience, it can add further examples of beautiful planted tanks! (disclaimer - EI is not the only way to create beautiful planted tanks!).

 

[plantbrain]

Well, the real issue with a method is does it meet your goals.

And there are many goals out there.
But what I have issues with, and why I get into tangles/debates with folks over, is that they want to say EI is bad for fish, causes algae or is wasteful or something else after I pound these issue.

First it was "it'll cause algae".
Then it was "it's wasteful".
Then "it's bad for fish".

You can say that, but saying it does not make it so.
You need to show that adding EI definitely cause fish health issues in light of 1000's of folks using the method that do not have fish health issues, algae or whatever excuse to bash the method they can come up with.

I do not bash other methods and suggest they do not work, they are bad for fish, that they are useless, or that I'll never try that method because of pride or because it's not my own method.

Wonder why I do not do that?
Because I've done the other methods successfully and several others not discussed often by hobbyist.

I know they work and that it's the user, not the method that fails.
Every method has a trade off and a set of assumptions.

You can force any method and produce and nice scape and post that as your evidence for success.
Doesw not mean it's better or worse nor worht the trade off for that person though.

After several years, you know what it takes.

I have suggested some others methods, EI included are derived greatly from PMDD like the List of Levels and Parameters and PPS. Some have chosen to claim that they developed everything themselves and that their system is radically different somehow.

They are not and never where.

All add nutrients for a given growth rate.
Nutrients = plant demand

I find it dumb to argue that EI is bad for fish, causes algae, and well............I sure cannot help the blind see..........but I mean what else, how high do we set the bar, and how many of the critic's claims and fear/loathing/doom do we need to hear?

Why are they dead set against it?

Why after I've tested and clearly falsified their claims(oddly they never test themslves and yet suggest we test all the time to ensure good conditions........I guess it's okay to give advice but not take your own cruiously???) that they keep insisting, never test it themselves to see etc?

Why can they not even bother to to test their own hypothesis?
Then they have their pride hurt and call me mean old Tom Barr, say all sort of personal garbage, but never again, curiously, answer the question nor provide direct evidence?

Support agenda, rather than learning?
Seems to be the case.

I've been providing excellent test results, tank examples, others have as well for over a decade about these issues.
My client's tanks also have these same approaches.
I've shown what it takes and how to induce each species of noxious algae.
I've shown examples of long term fish health time and time again.
I've falsified every critics calim leveled at the method.

I mean how much more evidence do these clowns require?
They talk to others about their belief's, I don't care, show me and show evidence, empirical evedience that supports that belief, prove your belief to a reasonable person of common sense and mind.

I can speculate and say I believe my purple underwear makes my tank look better.
Prove me wrong, there is a lot science does not know and so and so expert does not know everything etc.
I can say anything............but it does not make me right.
There's plenty of speculation to go around.

What there is not much of: testing to see if the hypothesis is correct or not.
And I am a bad guy for not agreeing with them and asking questions and doing test?

Now most if not all critics fall into the speculator's group, not the tester's group.
I do test a lot, but I answer questions, not merely monitor my tank based on someone else's assumptions.
That way I learn new things, know the system better, am able to move and compare from one method to the other.

Look, I freely admit I use to tell folks to test and use high quality test kits, it's all over the web.
But I also found folks will not do that either and that well, we really didn't need to do that also.
Those thqat will test, can and may use that in conjunction with eI and modify it, reduce the excess, or be experimental and test the upper ranges.

Now these boho's that enjoy bad mouthing never seem to be very experimental, testing and going higher. Testing a range, all they believe is that less is better.

Are they going to make or break a tank, cause algae, harm fish?
No.

Have they even bothered to test their claims/hypothesis?
Again, the answer is a resounding "No".

But they want to haggle and level false claims against a method that they cannot explain nor bother to test and try out.

Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[nry]

*nudge nudge*

We believe you Tom

"I can speculate and say I believe my purple underwear makes my tank look better."

Actually, now you mention it, I did start to wear purple underwear the day I started EI: maybe it is the underwear and not EI that has helped my tank?

 

[plantbrain]

Hi,
I know some of this is certainly things many have heard before.
It maybe preaching to the choir.

But I keep supporting it and showing folks.
While you might be convinced, the new cohorts are not.

It's not that I have not shown these methods and tanks to folks long ago, it's just we have a new set of hobbyists who have come to the web these days and has not heard that you can actually test and do stuff to make your life easier. They think this is something new.

It's not, this same conversation has occured 3-4 times over the years as each new cohort of plant folks becomes passionate about growing weeds and then wonders off after learning enough to grow the weeds well.
Helping new folks out and showing them and having them have the skills to test and prove it to themselves is important.
Then they will know.

I have no issue with folks saying EI has a trade off, every method does. Can we get around these trade offs easier?
What can we do and what are willing to give up to and have a new set of trade offs in their place?
Do we get anything siginificant out of these trade offs to make them worthwhile in terms of:

Fish health.
Algae.
Easier to control the rates of growth......(but hacks will toss non CO2 and less light, wiser species selection out the window when you ask them)
???

Their arguments get slammed, and get progressively further and further out there.
Then they never test their arguements. They will cite other hobby web sites' "general advice suggestions" for levels and claims.

Some will remain the same it seems as history repeats itself.
But so will I...... I will keep proving them wrong, keep pounding them for evidence, keep attacking the logic, keep asking them why I can have this nice tank and healthy fish easily year after year.


Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[plantbrain]

Here's another pic from last week, I let the M matogrossense take off as well as L aromatica.
the tank is starting to behave well and can be scaped better at this point.

And

I havested 4 head sized clumps of narrow leaf java fern and about 30 stems of L aromatica and more M mato than I could count, sold it all for about 200$. Not bad for a 2-4 week's growth phase.


Regards,
Tom Barr

 

[madgap]

Thats a beautiful tank.

Just one question, 'cause I'm thick. What is EI?

 

[nry]

Thats a beautiful tank.

Just one question, 'cause I'm thick. What is EI?

Check the pinned thread at the top of this forum

 

[DevUK]

EI = Estimative Index (title of the pinned thread). It took me a while to figure out that EI stood for Estimative Index, so it took me ages to find the pinned thread when people told me to look for it

 

[plantbrain]

It's the simple things that are tough for most of us
We are in the same boat there

Regards,
Tom Barr