What Did I Do Wrong? (long Post Alert)

[Phaedra]

First posted here.

Okay, I've wracked my brain, searched the web, the forum, everything I can think of. So now I need some more experienced help. I'm going to try to be as detailed as possible, I hope nobody minds. While I've done a lot of reading, I'm still a newbie to the hobby and find identifying behaviors a challenge.

First off, here are the stats in my tank---

Tank- 10g, cycled (I have never had an ammonia or nitrite reading. Established with borrowed filter media.) Filtered w/ Air Pump.
Inhabitants- 5 (now 3) fancy male guppies, 1 african dwarf frog, 1 amano shrimp, 1 mystery snail
Tank age: 4 months, 3 with fish
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 15
PH: 7.6

Tested: Every 2-3 days
Temp: It's warming up now, so the water is getting to near 80 degrees by midday, while in the morning it is around 75 (sometimes lower).
I removed my heater about a month ago after the temp started getting alarmingly high. (Around 82 if I remember right)

Water changes: Weekly, 20%
When gravel vac-ing, usually around 40%.
Aged, dechlorinated water or tap dechlorinated water.
A note about my water changes- I only have 2g of aged water, so with the larger changes, my habit is to use the aged water first, then use tap water, add dechlor, shake it around, and then add it to the tank. If it is too cold, I boil water (cold water from the tap) over the stove and add that until it meets or is near the "finger test" temp before adding it to the tank.

Feeding: 2x daily, flake food for the guppies. Every other day thawed frozen bloodworms for the ADF & Reptomin pellets. Snail & shrimp get whatever leftovers there are.

Symptoms:
Trying to remember everything here... Let's see.

When I first got my guppies, I made sure to buy them from LFS that is reputable, been around a while, individually filtered, had great tanks and informed employees. My first venture, I bought three fancy tailed guppies (2 yellow, one green) and acclimated them slowly over an hour, adding bits of water to their bags. They adjusted well and seemed happy, although the two yellow ones constantly picked on the green one.
About a week and a half after being added to the tank, I noticed that after feeding my ADF his blood worms, a couple of the guppies were "glancing" (I think that's the right word for it) against the gravel near where I fed my ADF. I thought it was some sort of behavioral thing, since they only seemed to do it after I fed my ADF (I watched them for the next few days to confirm). My original thread on it is here. Since they didn't seem to be doing it too often, I assumed it was some kind of territorial thing, or that perhaps they were trying to stir up more food.

I think it was about a week later that I bought 2 more guppies (from a different store, also very clean, informative and longtime established. The original store had the tank I got my first 3 guppies from had the guppy tank quarantined) and an amano shrimp, and added them to the tank, using the method described above.
Everything seemed to be fine. I wasn't seeing any more of the glancing, the aggression was spread out and poor Greeny wasn't getting all the attention. I was a little concerned when I noticed one of their tails had a split, but I had read that it was a common problem due to inbreeding, and it had healed itself smartly after one day.

Snap to two weeks later. (According to my Log, it was April 28th) One of my original 3 guppies was exhibiting clamped fins. I watched him for about two days. At times I would find him clamped, other times he would seem fine. Eating well, active, seeming happy. Finally one morning I went to the tank and his little tail was clamped tightly, with a red spot showing at the very tip.
I set up my little 1g quarantine tank (using water from his original tank so as not to send him into shock), added 1 drop of aquarisol and 1 teaspoon of salt (added gradually over 15 minutes). As soon as he entered the QT tank, he lost all of his gusto. He stopped swimming around, stopped eating and just looked pitiful.
The next day he was no better, and I noticed his guppy "brother", the other yellow one also was showing clamped fins. Deciding to nip this in the bud, I transfered him to the QT tank. To my horror and frustration, he died the next day. By the end of that evening, the first guppy I had QT'ed had also given up the ghost.
I don't know what caused it. I even bought a magnifying glass to inspect for flukes, and didn't see any sign of them. There was no signs of velvet, no sign of itch and until I QT'ed them, they ate well and were active. They looked exactly alike, could it have been some genetic flaw? Did I medicate them improperly? Am I a terrible fish keeper?!
*sigh*

Today, I have three guppies remaining in my 10g. The two I bought from the 2nd store, and little Greeny, the trooper from my first foray into guppies. There have been no signs of clamped fins, but I can remember one time seeing one "glance" off the gravel. While Greeny seems fine, one from the 2nd batch (Orange) has multiple splits in his tail which may be due to his constant bullying back and forth with Leroy. I'm going to start 20% water changes every other day and see if that has an improvement, but I'm also concerned that Orange seems to be doing a bit of a shimmy. Not often, and usually it's fast enough that if I blink, I miss it. Sometimes I'm not even sure if it's not just him swimming excitedly due to him and Leroy chasing each other. Everyone is eating fine (probably even better than fine since I bought shrimp pellets for my ADF), are active, curious and never hide.

Question is, should I medicate? What should I use? What could it be? Will medicating ruin the cycle I've worked so hard for? Would my ADF, Snail and Shrimp be okay in a 1g tank for the duration of any medicating I need to do? Am I leaving out some important step that is harming my fish? I've tried to think of everything...

Anyway. If you've gotten to the bottom of this post, thank you so much.
If you don't want to bother with all the details but think you can help,
please let me know what could cause glancing, clamped fins, red spot on fins, splits in fins, and shimmying.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

glancing, clamped fins, red spot on fins, splits in fins, and shimmying;
a. Flicking/rubbing/glancing against objects in the tank usually indicates that the fish has parasites, these parasites are usually either velvet, gill fluke or slime parasites. "Anti velvet and slime" by Interpet basically treats all commonly encountered external parasites apart from whitespot (which you fish don't have, unless of course they have white sand grain sized spots on them).
b. Clamped fins can be caused by numerous things, but are usually a general desease related stress symptom. When i say clamped fins can be caused by numerous things, this could be anything from internal bacteria, external bacterial infection, external parasites, finrot or body fungus etc etc.
c. Redding of the body or the fins, appearing like blood under the surface of the skin, is most likely septicemia, which is primarily an internal bacterial infection, but can also be caused by other stresses like severe temp fluctuations in the tank, bad finrot etc.
d. Splits in fins can also be caused by numerous things- more than often they are finrot related, whether bacterial or fungal finrot or both. However fish like fancy guppys (like delta tailed guppys) can sometimes experience spilt fins if the current from the filter in the tank is too strong as well.
e. Shimmying is when the fish shakes/vibrates all the time- this is more common in mollys where lack of salt can often bring onthe shimmies in mollys. However in fish like guppys, salt is not an issue, and shimmies can be caused by numerous things but is most commonly caused by an internal bacterial infection.


It sounds like to me your guppys could be suffering from numerous things, mostly bacterial and parasitic, so i would treat the tank as a whole to be on the safe side. I would treat the fish with "anti velvet and slime" by Interpet and Pimafix- these two meds combined will treat any external parasites the fish have apart from whitespot, while the Pimafix will treat external and internal bacterial infections and fungal infections too. However, most anti parasitic meds are harmful to crustaceons, invertebrates and molluscs, so i would move the amano shrimp and snail to your 1gal quarentine/hospital tank while you treat the main tank.

Regardless of how good the lfs you go to, it is almost imposible for lfs's to get desease and parasite free livebearers like guppys everytime since these fish tend to be very prone now days to picking such things up due to poorer imune systems in general from inbreeding and the crowded conditions they are often bred and raised up in at suppliers. This is also why having a cycled quarentine/hospital tank of a decent size is very useful when buying common livebearers like guppys so you can quarentine them for a couple of weeks after buying them to make sure they aren't carrying anything nasty .

 

[Phaedra]

Thanks so much for the informative reply! I'll run by the pet store this afternoon and pick up the meds you suggested.

A couple of questions:
Will the medications kill my beneficial bacteria?
If so, is there any way I can preserve my cycle? I'd hate to treat the fish, then have them suffer from fluctuating tank parameters afterward.
Is there any worry of reintroducing the parasite/bacteria when I return the invertebrates to the main tank after treatment?
Should I worry about residual medication in the tank when returning the invertebrates to it? Any suggestions on ways to ensure they'll have a happy homecoming?
How long does medicating usually take? Will my snail, frog & shrimp be okay in a 1g (unfiltered) tank for the duration?

 

[GoldLenny]

First posted here.

Temp: It's warming up now, so the water is getting to near 80 degrees by midday, while in the morning it is around 75 (sometimes lower).

I removed my heater about a month ago after the temp started getting alarmingly high. (Around 82 if I remember right)

I would return the heater and keep it set to at least 78F, maybe even 80F. Your heater should have a thermostat that turns the heater off once it reaches the desired temperature so the heater would turn off when the room temp gets to 80F and would turn on when the room/water temp drops below 80F.

Your tropical fish do not do well with fluctuating temps between 75F (or less) to 82F every day/night. This could be the stressor that is lowering their immune system allowing other opportunistic pathogens the chance to infect/infest your fish.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Thanks so much for the informative reply! I'll run by the pet store this afternoon and pick up the meds you suggested.

A couple of questions:
Will the medications kill my beneficial bacteria?
If so, is there any way I can preserve my cycle? I'd hate to treat the fish, then have them suffer from fluctuating tank parameters afterward.
Is there any worry of reintroducing the parasite/bacteria when I return the invertebrates to the main tank after treatment?
Should I worry about residual medication in the tank when returning the invertebrates to it? Any suggestions on ways to ensure they'll have a happy homecoming?
How long does medicating usually take? Will my snail, frog & shrimp be okay in a 1g (unfiltered) tank for the duration?

Nope the "anti velvet and slime" by Interpet and the Pimafix med are both filter bacteria friendly and won't cause your tank to cycle or anything like that. The shrimp and snail won't carry the parasites or bacteria as the vast majority of fish parasites and desease are species-specific, meaning they only affect fish and not other critters. However, with the residuel meds in the tank, you will need to use a carbon filter sponge in your filter (carbon sponges remove any chemicals/meds in the tanks water, carbon sponges are black in colour and are quite course sponges) for a couple of days before you re-introduce at the shrimp and snails after the course of meds has been finished- Juwel does lots of carbon sponges of all shapes and sizes, if you can't find one that fits your filter exactly, they are easy to cut down to the right size with a pair of scissors or knife .

I would definately advise getting a filter though for the 1gal tank though as amano shrimp are very sensitive to water quality, you can clone the established filter bacteria in your main tanks filter into the new filter by squeezing a bit of the gunk from the old filter into the new ones sponges and then by running it alongside the old filter in the main tank for a couple of days. Once this is done, move the new filter after its been running in the main tank for a couple of days to the quarentine/hospital tank at the same time you move the shrimp, frog and snail over. If you can get a larger quarentine/hospital tank (4-5gallons would be much better) this would be great as even if you clone the filter media, the tank would be technically overstocked with the shrimp, snail and frog, so water quality issues may still happen, even if at a small risk.
You can start to use the Pimafix while you are doing all of this as it is not harmful to snails or shrimp (not completely certain on frogs though, so you may have to ask about that in the Invertebrates, Amphibians & Aquatic Reptiles section of the forum), but only use the anti velvet and slime med once the shrimp, snail and frog is out of the main tank.

edit: I also agree with Goldlenny about the heater thing, the heater won't heat the tank above the set temp, but it will prevent the temp falling below the set temp in the tank- so removing the heater during hot weather won't cool the tank down, however it will mean that if the nights get cold there is nothing to stop the temp in the tank plumeting. Personally i would keep the filter in the tank if the house gets quite cool at night, as large changes in temp during night and day can be stressful for fish, particularly if they are feeling a bit under the weather.

 

[Phaedra]

I would return the heater and keep it set to at least 78F, maybe even 80F. Your heater should have a thermostat that turns the heater off once it reaches the desired temperature so the heater would turn off when the room temp gets to 80F and would turn on when the room/water temp drops below 80F.

Your tropical fish do not do well with fluctuating temps between 75F (or less) to 82F every day/night. This could be the stressor that is lowering their immune system allowing other opportunistic pathogens the chance to infect/infest your fish.

I feel so foolish. I never imagined that removing the heater could have such an impact! I guess I sort of panicked when the temp was getting above 80 degrees. I've returned the heater to the tank and there it will remain provided it's not defective. (Will be keeping a close eye on that)
Thank you for your help.

Nope the "anti velvet and slime" by Interpet and the Pimafix med are both filter bacteria friendly and won't cause your tank to cycle or anything like that. The shrimp and snail won't carry the parasites or bacteria as the vast majority of fish parasites and desease are species-specific, meaning they only affect fish and not other critters. However, with the residuel meds in the tank, you will need to use a carbon filter sponge in your filter (carbon sponges remove any chemicals/meds in the tanks water, carbon sponges are black in colour and are quite course sponges) for a couple of days before you re-introduce at the shrimp and snails after the course of meds has been finished- Juwel does lots of carbon sponges of all shapes and sizes, if you can't find one that fits your filter exactly, they are easy to cut down to the right size with a pair of scissors or knife .

I would definately advise getting a filter though for the 1gal tank though as amano shrimp are very sensitive to water quality, you can clone the established filter bacteria in your main tanks filter into the new filter by squeezing a bit of the gunk from the old filter into the new ones sponges and then by running it alongside the old filter in the main tank for a couple of days. Once this is done, move the new filter after its been running in the main tank for a couple of days to the quarentine/hospital tank at the same time you move the shrimp, frog and snail over. If you can get a larger quarentine/hospital tank (4-5gallons would be much better) this would be great as even if you clone the filter media, the tank would be technically overstocked with the shrimp, snail and frog, so water quality issues may still happen, even if at a small risk.
You can start to use the Pimafix while you are doing all of this as it is not harmful to snails or shrimp (not completely certain on frogs though, so you may have to ask about that in the Invertebrates, Amphibians & Aquatic Reptiles section of the forum), but only use the anti velvet and slime med once the shrimp, snail and frog is out of the main tank.

edit: I also agree with Goldlenny about the heater thing, the heater won't heat the tank above the set temp, but it will prevent the temp falling below the set temp in the tank- so removing the heater during hot weather won't cool the tank down, however it will mean that if the nights get cold there is nothing to stop the temp in the tank plumeting. Personally i would keep the filter in the tank if the house gets quite cool at night, as large changes in temp during night and day can be stressful for fish, particularly if they are feeling a bit under the weather.

Great to know about the meds. I'm pretty sure my tank has a carbon filter though, is there a sure way to find out? And what can I do if it does have carbon?

I don't know if I can afford another tank, but I'll look into it, as well as a filter for Shorty (my shrimp).
I really can't tell you all how much I appreciate your help. I feel like such a fool for taking the heater out. I've tried to be so careful about everything else!

Edit: I'm doing some searching around, and I can't find a store in the area that carries Interpet Anti Velvet & Slime. Does it come under any other names? Or is there any other meds you could suggest?

Edit 2: I forgot to mention, the 1g came with an undergravel filtration device apparently run by an air pump. Would this be sufficient? I'm trying to find it online, but having no luck...

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Great to know about the meds. I'm pretty sure my tank has a carbon filter though, is there a sure way to find out? And what can I do if it does have carbon?

If it has a carbon sponge it will be a black course sponge which is not very squishy (its quite a hard sponge), but if its been running in your filter all this time it will probably be no good as carbon sponges have quite a short life expectancy before they stop working/absorbing meds.
Carbon filter sponges generally look like this for example;

http/www.fishandfins.co.uk/images/carbon-juwel.jpg

Edit: I'm doing some searching around, and I can't find a store in the area that carries Interpet Anti Velvet & Slime. Does it come under any other names? Or is there any other meds you could suggest?

They have it on ebay;

http/cgi.ebay.co.uk/Interpet-Aquarium-Tr...1QQcmdZViewItem

Another med you could try is Jungle Parasite Clear, although personally i have not used it, it treats the same sorts of things as the anti slime and velvet med;

http/cgi.ebay.co.uk/JUNGLE-PARASITE-CLEA...VQQcmdZViewItem

It would take quite a while though to get meds though if you got them off ebay, but if you cannot find the Interpet med in your lfs try finding the Jungle one .

Edit 2: I forgot to mention, the 1g came with an undergravel filtration device apparently run by an air pump. Would this be sufficient? I'm trying to find it online, but having no luck...

Hm undergravel filtration devices tend to offer very basic filtration and are not as good for biological or mechanical filtration as other types of filtration, you wouldn't really be able to clone the beneficial bacteria in your current filter into the UGF (under gravel filter) as you would be able to do with another type of filtration like an internal sponge filter like those in the Fluval or TetraTec etc filter range (i'm not sure how you would be able to transfer beneficial bacteria into a UGF system to help cycle it instantly or very quickly). So i would advise getting a newer and better filter for the tank .

 

[Phaedra]

Well, my filter certainly doesn't look like that!
But it has some sort of rocks on the inside of it. There is a pic with the filter I use here.

I couldn't find the jungle medication either. The only thing I could find was Mardel Maracide, which I think I remember reading that some fishkeepers around here have used with good results.
Strange that they didn't have anything else to treat for external parasites but I'm sure it'll be fine. (*knocks on wood*)

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Hm i'm not familiar with that type of filter so i don't know if its range has carbon sponges, personally i would opt for a juwel filter as these are easy to find things like carbon sponges for . The member called Wilder will probably know more on Mardel Maracide than i do, i'm not sure if its bad for the beneficial filter bacteria or not.